ALERT: AMC Theaters have posted 30.06

[dmac]

AMC has been on the NRA-ILA's list of anti-gun companies for years now. ILA maintains a listing of organizations, companies, columnists, and celebreties who make donations/contributions to anti-gun groups, or who speak out against gun owners' rights. It is a list which all gun owners, IMHO, sould reference regularly.


http://www.nraila.org//Issues/FactSheet ... aspx?ID=15

[LedJedi]

Here's a copy of the letter I sent to Mrs. Bell:

Thanks Nitrogen and DoubleActionCHL for that info. I sent in my opinion to the company.

[CWOOD]

After reading this, I went to check the only AMC theatre in Austin, which is inside Barton Creek Mall..

There was wording which appeared to be proper but the sign was the size of a piece of notebook paper and was posted at the botton of two doors, one on each side of the box office. The sign were below knee level. At best the lettering was half to required size. I would ignore them and if ever confronted my response would be that if the signs were the proper size they would be much more conspicuous.

My feeling, is that a company the size of AMC obviously has staff attorneys who could provide them with all of the particulars about making a valid sign, in the same Penal Code section where they got the wording. They either have incompetant attorneys or they have made a concious decision to refrain from making them compliant. I think it is a bluff. They want you to not carry. But they want to be protected from liability if you don't carry and end getting assaulted on their property. They can then say, "Hey, the sign was non-compliant, so we didn't force the CHL'er to disarm...that was his choice. Don't sue me!"

Just my thoughts. Iguess I am a cynic.

[Doug.38PR]

Several people have said that the signs are noncompliant....however what are you going to say when a peace officer calls you down believing you have a gun on inside?
He takes hold of your gun. Looks at your CHL,
"I see, Sir. Sir are you aware of section 30.06 of the Texas penal code that makes it a trespess for you to carry here. The premises is posted."
"well, yes I am aware. But the letters on the sign are only 1/2 inch high and on too small a sign. The law says they have to be at least _______________"
You think he is going to buy that?
Even if he does know what the size requirements are for the sign....he still might not let it go considering that you knew of the intent of the business.
You might very well have to go to court and explain it to a judge.
As is always said: "who wants to be a test case?"

[Kalrog]

You think he is going to buy that?

He better because no crime has been committed in that case. If he arrests you for something that isn't a crime, he would find himself in a very untenable (and potentially liable) position.

[KC5AV]

Several people have said that the signs are noncompliant....however what are you going to say when a peace officer calls you down believing you have a gun on inside?
He takes hold of your gun. Looks at your CHL,
"I see, Sir. Sir are you aware of section 30.06 of the Texas penal code that makes it a trespess for you to carry here. The premises is posted."
"well, yes I am aware. But the letters on the sign are only 1/2 inch high and on too small a sign. The law says they have to be at least _______________"
You think he is going to buy that?
Even if he does know what the size requirements are for the sign....he still might not let it go considering that you knew of the intent of the business.
You might very well have to go to court and explain it to a judge.
As is always said: "who wants to be a test case?"

I would simply say, "Oh, that sign is so small, I didn't notice it when I came in. If it were posted according to legal guidelines I'm sure I would have seen it. I didn't realize that they don't want me here, but I'll be more than happy to leave."

John

[LedJedi]

I would simply say, "Oh, that sign is so small, I didn't notice it when I came in. If it were posted according to legal guidelines I'm sure I would have seen it. I didn't realize that they don't want me here, but I'll be more than happy to leave."

John

playing rent-a-lawyer with a cop is usually not a good idea.

[Doug.38PR]

Again, you think he is going to accept that? I believe the sign does say entry amred entry by a CHLer makes it a criminal trespess.

EDIT: (more responses since my post) It seems to me (and I would think to the officer...and judge too) that you are splitting hairs. The sign was there, even if it was technically not large enough, it was noticable, you were carrying in spite of the sign. It does say it is a criminal trespess to enter.
YOu would be technically within the law....but still the intent is clear.

Also, many policemen out there do not know every letter and dotted eye of the law. To Officer Jim Reed or Pete Malloy, the sign quotes texas penal code and makes you in violation and trespessing, that's the bottom line.
Yes you might be able to sue him after fighting it out in court for arrest charges...but is that really worth your time?

[KC5AV]

Yes, I might be arrested, but it would be up to the court to prove that I saw the sign in the first place.

It is very unlikely that I would walk past even an incorrectly posted 30.06 sign, though. I feel that if they don't want me to be there, I'd rather go some place else.

John

[CWOOD]

Again, you think he is going to accept that? I believe the sign does say entry amred entry by a CHLer makes it a criminal trespess.

EDIT: (more responses since my post) It seems to me (and I would think to the officer...and judge too) that you are splitting hairs. The sign was there, even if it was technically not large enough, it was noticable, you were carrying in spite of the sign. It does say it is a criminal trespess to enter.
YOu would be technically within the law....but still the intent is clear.

Also, many policemen out there do not know every letter and dotted eye of the law. To Officer Jim Reed or Pete Malloy, the sign quotes texas penal code and makes you in violation and trespessing, that's the bottom line.
Yes you might be able to sue him after fighting it out in court for arrest charges...but is that really worth your time?

Doug,
Obviously, we all have to make our own decision. The officers at a theatre are not on a stakeout. The theatre does not want trouble. My personal opinion is that a customer who, after asking to see which sign the officer was referencing, said that he didn't notice it but would have noticed and therefore abided by it if it had been the proper size and was willing to promptly and peacably leave now that he aware that he was unwelcome in the theatre (and now that an oral 3006 notice was given) there would be no interest in pursuing the matter further.

Your comment that carrying there would not be technically illegal is exactly the point. Each criminal offense contains certain elements. Unless ALL of those elements are present, then there is no offense. As an example, think of an eviction process. A person in an unfurnished apartment must be give proper notice a certain period of time before the eviction can proceed legally. If it was the INTENT of the landlord to provide the tenant with sufficient notice but did not comply with all of the requirements, then it is the LANDLORD who is then liable and in violation of the law if he proceeds with the eviction prematurely. Technicalities is what the law is all about. If the posted speed limit is 70, you cannot file charges on someone for going 69 (all other things being equal).

I certainly would not presume to suggest that you, or anyone else, do something that you would deem improper or imprudent. I am not even saying that I necessarily would go past the sign rather than go to another, more friendly, theatre and watch a movie. I am just saying that it would not be unreasonable for a CHL'er to pass the sign because he would not be violating any law. The 30.06 law was written as it was so as to be very specific in the elements of the tresspassing offense. It was made so intentionally.

[dac1842]

Here is what I sent to Mbell
I recently went to see Rambo at your Humble,Tx location. I am a concealed handgun license holder and since most theatres are located within malls, which as we all know are high crime areas, I always exercise my right to carry. I was disappointed to see a no handguns sign at the entrance and elected to not use my tickets and attend the movie.
I am disturbed by the corporate attitude. Certainly you understand that the only ones you will prevent from carrying within your theatres are the law abiding citizens who possess concealed handgun permits. The folks that choose to carry illegally will carry regardless of any signs you post. You are depriving the folks that in Texas have endured a DPS, FBI and fingerprint background check as well as medical records review that weeds out those with mental illness, from carry weapons for their personal protection.

I belong to a forum of several thousand concealed handgun license holders, your theatres have been mentioned in less than endearing tones on these boards and I can tell you a large percentage, including me will not attend movies at any of your establishments until the signs come down.

I am guessing that since you exercised your right to restrict the possession of handguns on your properties that you are now guaranteeing the safety of all those that attend. It would be a real shame, not to mention a public relations disaster for you to take the steps you have taken, then for a person who holds a CHL to become a victim of a crime on your property and he or she could have prevented that or the commission of a crime against someone else due to your short sighted policy making.
Remember you are only preventing law abiding citizens from carrying, the thugs will carry any way.

[dac1842]

Several have posted about the signs being compliant vs non compliant and carrying in non compliant areas. That is certainly your decision to make. However I believe that some courts may side with the "spirit of the law" arguement. That means while the letters may not be the correct height as prescribed by law the intent of the owner outweighs the perceived right of the defendant.
I personally when I encounter a non compliant sign, have asked to speak to the manager or owner. I very politley acknowledge his right to post a sign and use the old arguement you are only keeping law abiding citizens from carry a weapon. The ones that carry illegally will carry regardless. I have had two of them tear the signs down in my prescence. The others who opted to keep the signs up stated they were within their rights to post, and I agreed, and reminded them I was within my rights not to give them my business. I leave with this, there are rought 400,000 chl holders in the state of texas, half of them live with 100 miles of thier business, what a terrible market to push away. But then again who wants to frequent a business that prefers to cater to the crooks.

[DoubleActionCHL]

Has anyone gotten a return phonecall or email? I received a voicemail from Reyna Mentor of AMC (apparently Melanie Bell passed the buck). I called back but got her voicemail; left a message. We'll see...

[nitrogen]

No voicemail or reply from Mrs. Bell. She must have liked you better than me

I was in Northpark Center to check out the Apple Store today, and there is an AMC in the mall, so I went and did a little "Corporate Civil Disobedience." I bought a ticket for RAmbo at one of their automated ticket counters, and then walked up past the box office. I then saw their "sign" (which was nowhere near compliant) and stopped, walked up to the box office and asked for a refund.
"What's the problem, sir?"
"Well, I'll be legally trespassing if I continue"
???
"You don't allow legal concealed weapons license holders on your premises, so I need my money back; I can't go inside."
"Oh, you're one of those gun people. I had someone complain about that the other day. It's corporate policy, there's not much I can do about it. Sorry"

And I got my refund.

Here's two pictures I took of their noncompliant sign.




To give you an idea how big those signs are, they are about the size of an outstretched hand. You could easily miss them.

[Stupid]

Pretty sure all our emails have gone to her spam filter.

I would like to post this sign along with the 30.06 (why do I keep thinking this is a caliber?)

Has anyone gotten a return phonecall or email? I received a voicemail from Reyna Mentor of AMC (apparently Melanie Bell passed the buck). I called back but got her voicemail; left a message. We'll see...