Prison grounds?

[Liberty]

Grill King,
I think that asking someone to surrender ones weapon is perfectly legal. The right to demand that a visitor surrender ones weapon is restrictive. I wouldn't support most gun gun laws that aren't a clear enhancement of the right to carry. New gun laws that clarify by adding restrictions don't sound like a good idea to me. Sometimes being fuzzy is the best it is going to get.

[KBCraig]

While a warden cannot take away from the rules, he can and will enhance them to suit his respective unit on an "as needed" basis.

By 'enhancing' the rules, the warden is taking away. He does not have the legal authority to do so.

The warden has the legal authority to deny entrance to anyone. The prison (including grounds) are not open to the public, despite being public property. Visitors can only enter with specific permission, and if they can only get that permission by unloading, emptying magazines, and locking the gun away, then that's what they'll have to do if they want to enter. It's not a 30.06 issue.

Prisons can (and do) deny entrance for all sorts of arbitrary reasons that don't seem to make much sense.

That said, I think securing the gun in the locked vehicle is sufficient, and the extra precautions of emptying magazines, etc., is just silly. Not to mention, more likely to result in an AD.

[Kalrog]

It's not a 30.06 issue.

How is it not? When the legislature specifically said that public places (publicly owned - as opposed to open to the public) cannot make something off limits to a CHL holder simply because of the handgun. I agree that the warden can deny entrance for other reasons, but that he can't use the handgun as the reason.

[GrillKing]

The warden has the legal authority to deny entrance to anyone.

I disagree. It's not a 30.06 issue, I agree with you there, but it is an issue that governmental entities other than the legislature do NOT have legal authority to regulate the transportation of firearms. That is the law. If I have a legitimate need to be on prison grounds, whether or not I am a CHL carrying or not is NOT RELEVENT under the law. I know that not just anyone can enter the prison grounds, but those that do cannot be (actually should not be) denied entry on the basis of CHL carry (PC 30.06 restricting governmental entities and PC 30.05 defense to restriction on the basis of CHL carry alone).

Challenge: Show me where the warden can restrict, I think(?) I've shown where he cannot. (I realize he actually does, but he shouldn't. I also would not fight that battle at the gate, but it irks me that people don't adhere to the law like I do.)

[KBCraig]

Title 37 of the Texas Administrative Code:

RULE §151.21 Weapons Policy

(a) Policy.

(1) The Texas Department of Criminal Justice (TDCJ) requires that all persons carrying a firearm shall unload and safely secure the firearm prior to entering a TDCJ correctional facility. For purposes of visiting a TDCJ correctional facility, a peace officer, a person licensed to carry a handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, or a person who is otherwise authorized to carry a deadly weapon shall unload and secure the weapon(s) in the locked trunk of a vehicle, or a locked compartment of a vehicle if the vehicle does not have a trunk, immediately upon parking or while stopped at the first security checkpoint, whichever occurs first. A peace officer may also store his weapon in any other TDCJ authorized location prior to entering the perimeter fence.


More here.

[Kalrog]

Title 37 of the Texas Administrative Code:

RULE §151.21 Weapons Policy

Who makes this code? Is this law passed by the legislature or is this a departmental policy? If just a bureaucrat making things up and putting it in a book... how does that override state law passed by the legislature?

[GrillKing]

Title 37 of the Texas Administrative Code:

RULE §151.21 Weapons Policy

(a) Policy.

(1) The Texas Department of Criminal Justice (TDCJ) requires that all persons carrying a firearm shall unload and safely secure the firearm prior to entering a TDCJ correctional facility. For purposes of visiting a TDCJ correctional facility, a peace officer, a person licensed to carry a handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, or a person who is otherwise authorized to carry a deadly weapon shall unload and secure the weapon(s) in the locked trunk of a vehicle, or a locked compartment of a vehicle if the vehicle does not have a trunk, immediately upon parking or while stopped at the first security checkpoint, whichever occurs first. A peace officer may also store his weapon in any other TDCJ authorized location prior to entering the perimeter fence.


More here.

I guess the legislature did specifically regulate the carrying of firearms on prison grounds. Thanks KBCraig!!

[GrillKing]

I guess the legislature did specifically regulate the carrying of firearms on prison grounds. Thanks KBCraig!!

After actually reading this administrative code, it appears to me that this is a TDCJ policy. Some of this appears to me to be incorrect interpretation of state law regarding CHL carry at a prison. I return to my original position that CHL carry on the parking lots IS legal. I'm bowing out now. My head has exploded!!!!

§ 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE
HOLDER.
(3) on the premises of a correctional facility;
(f) In this section:
(3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a
building. The term does not include any public or private driveway,
street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other
parking area.

[Right2Carry]

While a warden cannot take away from the rules, he can and will enhance them to suit his respective unit on an "as needed" basis.

By 'enhancing' the rules, the warden is taking away. He does not have the legal authority to do so.

The warden has the legal authority to deny entrance to anyone. The prison (including grounds) are not open to the public, despite being public property. Visitors can only enter with specific permission, and if they can only get that permission by unloading, emptying magazines, and locking the gun away, then that's what they'll have to do if they want to enter. It's not a 30.06 issue.

Prisons can (and do) deny entrance for all sorts of arbitrary reasons that don't seem to make much sense.

That said, I think securing the gun in the locked vehicle is sufficient, and the extra precautions of emptying magazines, etc., is just silly. Not to mention, more likely to result in an AD.

[KBCraig]

I guess the legislature did specifically regulate the carrying of firearms on prison grounds. Thanks KBCraig!!

Wait, not so quick!

As someone else quickly pointed out, this is "administrative code", meaning it's policy with the weight of law. It's exactly like CFR (Code of Federal Regulations); it's not law, exactly, but there's little you can do about it.

I threw the TAC cite in as a little head-twister, because too often we rely on TPC, or sometimes TGC. This particular code predates the revision to PC 30.06:
"Source Note: The provisions of this §151.21 adopted to be effective April 8, 1996, 21 TexReg 2476; amended to be effective February 5, 2004, 29 TexReg 1212"

And so, we're back to this: TAC §151.21 might be partially invalidated by current law, but the fact remains that a TDC facility (including the grounds) is not open to the public, and you're not getting in without complying with their rules.

It's just like the endless debates we've had about the (posted, but city-owned) American Airlines Center: you're not in violation of the law if you carry there (except according to Frankie ), but if they catch you up front, there's little you can do to force them to let you in.

[GrillKing]

It's just like the endless debates we've had about the (posted, but city-owned) American Airlines Center: you're not in violation of the law if you carry there (except according to Frankie ), but if they catch you up front, there's little you can do to force them to let you in.

There we go. Makes sense. Grillking Out.

[txinvestigator]

RE: The Texas Administrative Code;

This code is written as policies, rules and regulations for various agencies witin the state. Only policies authorized by other law can be created, and they hold the weight of law.

[Starvin]

Lets try to clear this up. I am the officer at the highway gate of one the largest units in the state. Upon your arrival, you will be asked if you have any weapons in your vehicle (i am expecting you to be honest). After documenting your arrival, I will perform a comprehensive search of said vechicle. If you told me you had no weapon and I do in fact, find one, we have a problem. Now, if you told me "Yes, I have a weapon inside my car", I will advise the duty warden of the weapon. You be asked to secure your weapon and proceed with your business. I do not care that you have a CHL as one does not need one to carry within the confines of a vehicle. I will ask you to park the vehicle within my view so that I can watch over it while you take care of your business. In 12 years I have not once denied anyone entry into our facility because they had a weapon and announced that fact prior to entry. Please remember, I work for you, the taxpayer, and I will always look out for your best interest.

[pt145ss]

If you told me you had no weapon and I do in fact, find one, we have a problem.

What exactly do you mean by that? What is your SOP in that situation?

[Starvin]

An immediate supervisor would be contacted and a decision would be made thereafter. Each situation is different, think "totality of the circumstances". I could talk 24/7 for weeks and still not be able to convey everything we must deal with. Look at it this way, people get out of prison, these people return to prison to visit the "friends" they left behind. Now, if a former inmate comes to visit another inmate and he has a weapon in the vehicle, what is to prevent him from hiding it in the parking lot so his friend can locate it while cleaning the parking lot? How many of the general public has been jeopardized? Do you see where I am going with this? My job is to keep the institution and its inhabitants safe, my job also entails keeping folks like yourself safe. It is a difficult and thankless job, but a necessary one that I enjoy doing. I have saved a few lives while endangering mine, yet you never hear about it. However, if I make a mistake, everyone hears about it. So as to help protect the public, I will err on the side of caution. As I said before, I work for you and I will do everything possible to accomodate you should you show up at my gate.