Unlicensed Man's gun discharges in cubicle at work

[casingpoint]

Lucky45, a handgun must no longer be concealed while traveling in Texas. And even if concealment was required, in your scenario the towel moved and not the gun, consequently the driver remained in "control" of his weapon, although not the towel. Under the old traveling law necessitating concealment, the driver could be cited.

But had the driver been in been in a wreck, and the towel, the handgun and every other thing lying loose inside the car strewn about while not under his control, the driver could not be cited, as the gun became unconcealed as a result of a force majeure, an unforseen event in which a party is excused from liability if prevented from performing a legal obligation, namely, to conceal the weapon.

It is highly unlikely that Mr. Marks, the unfortunate man who dropped the weapon inside the synagogue, would be cited for open carry under the circumstances.

However, as the discharge did occur within the confines of a synagogue, the incident does highlight an advantage to carrying a semi automatic pistol with an empty chamber, a.k.a. in the "Israeli Draw" mode.

[casingpoint]

txinvestigator wrote

<<<Wow. There are lots of HUGE stretches in this thread>>>

I'm a message board expert.

I might add that if you are having trouble with my legal analysis here, it is probably because you are a victim of the Common Law System used in Texas and the forty-eight other backward states in the Union, and I am coming straight out of the Napoleonic Code of Louisiana. The difference is you guys make up law as you go along, and over here we already have it down pat.

[Renegade]

Lucky45, a handgun must no longer be concealed while traveling in Texas. And even if concealment was required, in your scenario the towel moved and not the gun, consequently the driver remained in "control" of his weapon, although not the towel. Under the old traveling law necessitating concealment, the driver could be cited..

The "old traveling law" still exists, and it has never required concealment.

[txinvestigator]

Lucky45, a handgun must no longer be concealed while traveling in Texas. And even if concealment was required, in your scenario the towel moved and not the gun, consequently the driver remained in "control" of his weapon, although not the towel. Under the old traveling law necessitating concealment, the driver could be cited.

Lots of misinformation there. Prior to 2005, "traveling" was a non-applicability section to the UCW laws, which then generally prohibited the carry of a handgun on or about your person. Under that law, there was no requirement to conceal the handgun

in 2005, a section was added to traveling that made it a presumption that the person was traveling if the person was in a motor vehicle AND the weapon was not in plain view (equals being concealed). If a person were depending on the presumption then the gun HAD to be concealed.

However, if the person was depending on the undefined "traveling" and not the presumption, then there was no requirement to conceal the handgun. And "control" of the weapon is not the issue. On or about your person was, and still is.

Ans since UCW is a class A misdemeanor at minimum, it is not "cite-able".

But had the driver been in been in a wreck, and the towel, the handgun and every other thing lying loose inside the car strewn about while not under his control, the driver could not be cited, as the gun became unconcealed as a result of a force majeure, an unforseen event in which a party is excused from liability if prevented from performing a legal obligation, namely, to conceal the weapon.

There was no stated culpability in the pre-2005 non-applicability nor the 2005 one.

However, since UCW has a culpability of Intentionally, knowingly or recklessly, hiding a gun under a towel and having it slide certainly could subject the person to arrest under UCW.

However, as the discharge did occur within the confines of a synagogue, the incident does highlight an advantage to carrying a semi automatic pistol with an empty chamber, a.k.a. in the "Israeli Draw" mode.

You mean the advantage of carrying a club?

We don't know what type of gun the man was carrying, but if was WAS on safe as he said, the it must have been one without a firing pin block. I don't carry one of those, and would not. The argument for the goofy "Israeli draw mode" only applies to those without a firing pin block.

[John Collins]

So many times there is never any follow up on these stories. Number one - he does have a CHL the police just not check throughly enough, but they never go back and say "oh yeah, he does have one" we were wrong initially.

He carries because the building he works in is in a bad location, no security, parking lot wide open, no fences, gates, contolled entry, no cameras. Cars come and go across this parking lot with no control. Working mandatory Monday nights till after 8pm and going into not so nice neighborhoods for appointments that may last several hours, carrying a laptop and getting back to his vehicle where it may be pitch dark.

Fact:
The business does not have the 30.06 signs posted anywhere on the premises.

The policy of the business is that a person is allowed with written permission to carry onsite but only the owner has written permission. BUT what difference does that make if there is an accident like this one. Same rules apply right?

The jacket he was wearing never made it to the back of his chair. The gun discharged as he was taking the jacket off to put it over the back of the chair.

Its possible the trigger caught the edge of the chair arm just right.

The empty case was still in barrel and never ejected.

Remember the hole is 6 inches below his knee. So that puts the gun hanging low not in his hand. If that were so it would have to have been pointed back at his leg as he bent over holding the gun pointed back towards him below his knee.

The bullet entered 6 inches below the right knee at about a 45 degree angle going down and broke the tibia, exited and went through the left leg calve muscle hit the bottom of a particle board book case then hit the cement floor and bottom of cubicle wall.

Thankfully no one else was hurt but the man.

This wouldn't happen again in a million years. A horrible lesson was learned through a self inflicted wound.

Don't you people think you would have learned a lesson if this happened to you?

Is it really worth the Tarrant county DA prosecuting this man for a Class A misdemonor of deadly conduct (he wasn't waving the gun around or showing it to anyone) taking tax payer dollars to try this person for something he would never do again or has done before, never been in trouble with the law before. What is there to be gained?

I doubt he woke up that day and said "Hey I think I'll blow four holes in my legs today and lose my job and health insurance and set myself up for a blood clot"

There are probably many out there that would never admit they have had a near miss with a gun accidentally going off.

But we let people with 8 DWI's in one example and multiple DWI's in others still drive on the road and everyone here seems to think so much of a one time occurence that will never happen again.

[txinvestigator]

So many times there is never any follow up on these stories. Number one - he does have a CHL the police just not check throughly enough, but they never go back and say "oh yeah, he does have one" we were wrong initially.

Welcome to the forum John.

Are you the unfortunate subject of this thread, or a friend, co-worker, etc?

[Lucky45]

The jacket he was wearing never made it to the back of his chair. The gun discharged as he was taking the jacket off to put it over the back of the chair.

Its possible the trigger caught the edge of the chair arm just right.

The empty case was still in barrel and never ejected.

Can you tell me what kind of gun did this guy have, and if any work was done to it?

[PAR]

Sounds like this hit a little close to home, sure hope he comes back to answer your questions.

[dukalmighty]

I can see the story now, after several related accidental discharges employees are now required to wear depends when coming to work.

[Paladin]

Welcome to the forum Mr. Collins!

[WildBill]

John Collins is the name of the man who accidently shot himself.

[jrosto]

I met with JC this afternoon to talk about what happened on that day.

I am still digesting what we talked about and putting it down into something legible.

The firearm in question was an early '70's Colt Commander with an aluminum frame. The ammunition was 230gr. fmj.

Like most of you, I was really wondering about the "how". In previous emails JC mentioned that the firearm was a 1911. I think we have come up with an answer to "how", and it is a good lesson learned.

Give me some time with my Sweetie and a bit more to articulate what we believe happened and I will post a follow up.

[John Collins]

Thanks to those of you for not condeming me for a mistake. Learn from my mistake and use my experience to help educate others please!! I wouldn't wish this on anyone.

Had a good visit with Jrosto I showed him the holes in my legs and how they are located in front below the knee going to the back. YOu have to almost see it to get the full picture. AND I learned a WHOLE lot about 1911 COLT's this afternoon.

It may explain the how and I'm not saying there were not things I could have done to be safer. I just wish I had known about this earlier.

I guarantee you all of one thing, had I known about this particular design element of my gun I would have always kept it in a gun holster or a carry box but not a pocket.

But no matter like the police guy said, accident or not your are still responsible for making sure your gun's safety's work and you have them engaged etc... I agree, I'm not trying to get out of making a mistake but I'll never do it again in a million years. Well the one time I make a mistake I really did a good one. I'm so thankful no one else was hurt. If anyone out there needs a poster boy for what NOT to do I'm it.

[jrosto]

JC is quite frank and upfront about the incident. He acted out what he was doing when the pistol discharged, and showed me the wounds. It turns out that the pistol was an early 70's Colt Commander with an aluminum frame, and he was using 230gr fmj ammunition. After looking at all four of his wounds, it is a very good thing he was not using HST's.

One thing that I was really interested in about this particular incident was finding out what, exactly, caused the pistol to discharge. As many of you know, a 1911 is a very safe firearm to carry. To discharge a 1911 style pistol you need to release the thumb safety, depress the grip safety, and pull the trigger. I just could not understand how the gun discharged without his hand being in the pocket. The location of the wounds pretty much shows that the gun was fired below his knees from an angle that he could not easily achieve while standing and removing his coat. I am pretty confident that he was not handling the pistol when it discharged. While we were talking through different possibilities I learned that the police found no pencil, pen or other object that could have pressed the trigger. While we were talking about firearm safety, JC mentioned how he safely got his pistol ready for carry. He always put his thumb on the face of the hammer while pulling the trigger to let the hammer down. That's when it hit me, he was carrying a 1911 with the hammer down on a live cartridge. His other pistols have a decock feature and he never thought that the 1911 did not. It is possible that he only lowered the hammer to the hammer stop, but in talking with him it appears that is not the case, the hammer was down on a live round. With spring pressure holding the hammer against the firing pin, it would not take much of a bump to cause a discharge. Even if the hammer was on the stop, that is a very dangerous means of carrying a 1911. The hammer stop is not a safety when it comes to methods of carry.

The purpose of commenting on this incident is to go over the lessons learned, not to beat up on JC. JC has lost his job, his health insurance and his ability to walk normally. He has been shot in both legs and has the possibility of being charged hanging over his head. He does not need me to be piling any more on that load, but there is a lot we can learn from this.

[Mike1951]

Having had your epiphany, you may be ahead of some of us.

Now that you're here, stick around!