Unlicensed Man's gun discharges in cubicle at work

[frankie_the_yankee]

The horror of concealed carry is incompetent persons causing accidental/negligent discharges to innocent bystanders.

Just curious, but have you ever heard of an innocent bystander being hurt or killed by an AD that occurred from a gun that was concealed at the time?

I haven't.

Personally, I don't see how carrying concealed or openly makes any difference as to whether or not an AD/ND is likely to occur.

"Knowing who has what" isn't going to do anything for you unless you mean that you are going to adopt a policy where you intentionally move away from anyone you see carrying openly.

That would be pretty wierd. I never saw anyone do that in Phoenix, AZ. Mostly, people just ignore people carrying openly there.

[KBCraig]

He'll probably be fired and his insurance will be terminated. He will end up footing the bill for this entire thing. I doubt they'll hit him with anything big from a criminal stance if at all.

They still have to pay for a covered injury that happened while his policy was active.

[casingpoint]

frankee the yankee,

No, I do not recall anyone the victim of a negligent discharge while the weapon was concealed. But I know a couple of people who have been shot in ND's/AD'S in addition to myself, and let me assure you it ain't pleasant. Actually, I only know one other person who was shot. The second guy died. Accidental/negligent discharge stateside on a U.S. Army firing range to the head during the Vietnam War. One takes precautions if one is sensitive to such things, and there is no such thing as too much precaution when it comes to firearms.

Are you really comfortable with standing behind some bozo trying to extract their autojammer from a concealed horizontal shoulder holster. How do you know they don't have their finger on the trigger when pulling on the gun? Because of their "training?"

First rule of the gun is never point it at anybody you don't intend to shoot. Second rule is never assume it's unloaded. Third rule is never assume a gun won't go off.

Anyone unconcerned about others while carrying in a shoulder holster should ask themselves would they utilize one where the gun points straight up at their armpit and the brachial artery.
http://www.dlsports.com/holster_dual_j_ ... up_med.jpg

Regarding open and concealed carry, the later has the advantage of surprise, the former speed. Depends on where you are and the likelihood of something going down.

Had the patrons at Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen been packing openly in 1991 as a matter of public policy, George Hennard probably would have been less inclined to enter the building and kill twenty-three people and shoot another twenty. And if he had, the outcome would have been decidedly different. The same might well be said for concealed carry, but an important visual deterrent factor is completely absent.

The visual deterrent to criminal activity, inherent in the open carry of firearms, is a freebee which should be itegrated into social policy.

Here is a story about a reasonable person who seems to have worked his way through the issues on how to carry.

[txinvestigator]

First rule of the gun is never point it at anybody you don't intend to shoot. Second rule is never assume it's unloaded. Third rule is never assume a gun won't go off.

I never heard that rule three;

1. All guns are always loaded.

2. never allow the muzzle to cover anything you are not willing to destroy.

3. Keep you finger off of the trigger until on target and ready to fire.

4. Always know your target and what is beyond.

Anyone unconcerned about others while carrying in a shoulder holster should ask themselves would they utilize one where the gun points straight up at their armpit and the brachial artery.
http://www.dlsports.com/holster_dual_j_ ... up_med.jpg

I don't understand this. You can't control what anyone else does,regardless of where they carry.

Regarding open and concealed carry, the later has the advantage of surprise, the former speed. Depends on where you are and the likelihood of something going down.

Thats a big assumption. I don't deep carry, and I can draw from concealment as quickly as many can from OWB.

Had the patrons at Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen been packing openly in 1991 as a matter of public policy, George Hennard probably would have been less inclined to enter the building and kill twenty-three people and shoot another twenty.

Really? He killed himself. He planned to die. I don't think open carry would have effected him at all. He didn't know if there were a table full of plainclothes detectives in there or not, and he didn't care. He was going to die. So I have to say you are making an invalid assumption.

And if he had, the outcome would have been decidedly different. The same might well be said for concealed carry, but an important visual deterrent factor is completely absent.

I don't believe OC is a visual deterrent. There are plenty of people who OC and are crime victims. There were a couple of armed armored car guards robbed here not too long ago.

The visual deterrent to criminal activity, inherent in the open carry of firearms, is a freebee which should be itegrated into social policy.

There is no evidence of that. In fact, I say there is evidence to the contray.



BTW, thank you for your service to our country, and the sacrifice.

[flintknapper]

casingpoint wrote:

Are you really comfortable with standing behind some bozo trying to extract their autojammer from a concealed horizontal shoulder holster. How do you know they don't have their finger on the trigger when pulling on the gun? Because of their "training?"

Drawing your weapon from a horizontal shoulder holster is not as difficult as make it sound. I suspect you have little or no experience with them...else you would know that. Myself and many other "Bozo's" have managed to carry this way for quite a few years and never shot anyone or had a ND/AD.

As concerns having your finger on the trigger when you draw: That is not even possible until you have the firearm nearly out of the holster. The trigger is covered by the holster.

Of greater concern... is when someone "re-holsters" (regardless the mode of carry).


casingpoint wrote:

First rule of the gun is never point it at anybody you don't intend to shoot. Second rule is never assume it's unloaded. Third rule is never assume a gun won't go off.

Actually, these are the commonly accepted gun safety rules:

1. All guns are always loaded (until you establish whether they are or not).

2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. Keep your gun pointed in a safe direction at all times: on the range, at home, loading, or unloading.

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target (and you are ready to shoot).

4. Be sure of your target. Know what it is, what is in line with it and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything that you haven't positively identified.


casingpoint wrote:

Anyone unconcerned about others while carrying in a shoulder holster should ask themselves would they utilize one where the gun points straight up at their armpit and the brachial artery.

http://www.dlsports.com/holster_dual_j_ ... up_med.jpg

You'll note that in the link you provided....the pistol has the trigger covered. Also, the hammer is usually blocked by a retention strap on most rigs. How is it going to go off (especially a revolver)?

I don't know if you participated in this thread, but from the respondents...75% were forced to admit that their mode of carry had the muzzle pointing either at themselves or someone else. Its a fact of life.

http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... hp?t=10622

Properly working, modern, firearms...do not "go off" sitting in a holster (of any kind). You are much more at risk of being injured by some "Bozo" driving a vehicle, than you are by someone accidentally shooting you while drawing from their holster.

[frankie_the_yankee]

frankee the yankee,

No, I do not recall anyone the victim of a negligent discharge while the weapon was concealed. But I know a couple of people who have been shot in ND's/AD'S in addition to myself, and let me assure you it ain't pleasant.

Were any of these ND's/AD's related in any way to open vs. concealed carry?

You mention a ND incident on a US Army firing range. I would assume that whatever weapon was involved was being carried openly at the time, correct?

We all agree that AD's and ND's are a problem. But I fail to see where concealed carry makes it any more likely that an ND or AD will happen. And you have presented no data in support of this assertion.

So I do not understand your earlier reference to "concealed carry horror stories" or something like that, that we have all supposedly heard of.

[KD5NRH]

Just curious, but have you ever heard of an innocent bystander being hurt or killed by an AD that occurred from a gun that was concealed at the time?

I haven't.

Yes you have; you even posted in the thread: http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... hp?t=10199

[frankie_the_yankee]

Just curious, but have you ever heard of an innocent bystander being hurt or killed by an AD that occurred from a gun that was concealed at the time?

I haven't.

Yes you have; you even posted in the thread: http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... hp?t=10199

Nice pick up. I had forgotten about that incident. FWIW, I would say this incident is far from a concealed carry "horror story".

And why would we think that it would have been any different if the guy had been carrying openly?

[seamusTX]

an AD that occurred from a gun that was concealed at the time?

Actually, the pistol was not concealed at the time that it discharged. If it had been in a holster, the incident probably would not have happened.

I forgot about this until just now, but an idiot* in Galveston County had a pistol in his pocket when one of his relatives hugged him, and the pistol discharged and hit her.

*He was a felon.

- Jim

[casingpoint]

seamus wrote <<<Actually, the pistol was not concealed at the time that it discharged. If it had been in a holster, the incident probably would not have happened.>>>

The pistol was concealed until Mr. Marks lost his control over it and the gun fell to the floor and discharged. This is an accidental discharge of a concealed weapon. The fact that it was unconcealed when it actually fired is immaterial. What determines is how it was being carried when it went out of the owner's control. If it had NOT been carried concealed, but in the open, Mr. Marks or a bystander might have noticed the gun in a precarious condition and prevented the unwanted discharge.

[txinvestigator]

seamus wrote <<<Actually, the pistol was not concealed at the time that it discharged. If it had been in a holster, the incident probably would not have happened.>>>

The pistol was concealed until Mr. Marks lost his control over it and the gun fell to the floor and discharged. This is an accidental discharge of a concealed weapon. The fact that it was unconcealed when it actually fired is immaterial. What determines is how it was being carried when it went out of the owner's control. If it had NOT been carried concealed, but in the open, Mr. Marks or a bystander might have noticed the gun in a precarious condition and prevented the unwanted discharge.

Wow. There are lots of HUGE stretches in this thread.

[Lucky45]

seamus wrote <<<Actually, the pistol was not concealed at the time that it discharged. If it had been in a holster, the incident probably would not have happened.>>>

The pistol was concealed until Mr. Marks lost his control over it and the gun fell to the floor and discharged. This is an accidental discharge of a concealed weapon. The fact that it was unconcealed when it actually fired is immaterial. What determines is how it was being carried when it went out of the owner's control. If it had NOT been carried concealed, but in the open, Mr. Marks or a bystander might have noticed the gun in a precarious condition and prevented the unwanted discharge.

I would PAY to see someone go before a judge with your reasoning. "Your honor, I know I don't have a CHL when the LEO pulled me over, but the braking force of the car caused the towel that was covering my gun to move. Thereby exposing the gun when the officer walked up. Therefore, my gun was CONCEALED. It is immaterial that he saw it then, because it was cover when I was travelling. So I was not UCW."

PLEASE!!!!

[Liberty]

I would PAY to see someone go before a judge with your reasoning. "Your honor, I know I don't have a CHL when the LEO pulled me over, but the braking force of the car caused the towel that was covering my gun to move. Thereby exposing the gun when the officer walked up. Therefore, my gun was CONCEALED. It is immaterial that he saw it then, because it was cover when I was travelling. So I was not UCW."

PLEASE!!!!

In the spirit of healthy thread drift, and I really understand what you are saying, but to make clear a fine point,.

If you are travelling and that is your defense. There is no requirement to having your handgun concealed.

[Lucky45]

If you are travelling and that is your defense. There is no requirement to having your handgun concealed.

I disagree.

PC §46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS.
(a-1) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly,
or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a
motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's
control at any time in which:
(1) the handgun is in plain view;

(b) Except as provided by Subsection (c), an offense under this
section is a Class A misdemeanor.

[Renegade]

If you are travelling and that is your defense. There is no requirement to having your handgun concealed.

I disagree.

PC §46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS.
(a-1) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly,
or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a
motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's
control at any time in which:
(1) the handgun is in plain view;

(b) Except as provided by Subsection (c), an offense under this
section is a Class A misdemeanor.

That is to get protection under 46.02. Protection under 46.15 - Traveling, does not require the handgun to be concealed.