Scenario discussion

[spider373]

I am a new CHL. A couple of scenario situations seem swirl in my head. I could not shake them off...

I know I know, the most important thing is the area awareness. But I have been in a few situations which I would certainly rather not. Nevertheless, one thing leads to another, anyway, I ended up there. For example, here is a benign one.

Once during our usual lunch hour walk on a quiet trail, we, I and a coworker, saw these two young men wandering on the trail closing to a street corner, peeking/looking at us etc, anyway, suspiciously. We looked at each other. I could feel his tension. I knew I was nervous. Remember this was a trail we always walked. Like it or not, we did not have much choice. Anyway, before we could decide anything, we came up to them in our usual brisk walk. We looked at them directly and said hello as we usually did to other strangers. Well, they stepped aside and hello'ed back. Nothing happened. We never saw them again.

My walking buddy did not know if I carried or not. But it was an encounter that made me think. The recent robbery story at IHOP/Woodlands, where two guys were robbed at gun point after leaving the restaurant at 3am by two robbers, was at first similar to ours, but went the opposite way very quick. They had saw these two young men and had decided to keep going toward their car which put them in an possible head-on encounter. Unfortunately, they were robbed. BTW, the robbers got away at 1960/I-45 area after some highway chase.

1) You do not know if the guys walking at you are good or bad until they are close to you and produce their weapons,
2) Do you want to appear hysteric in front your "innocent" co-workers, (or family members/children) just because you see some suspicious people walking at you ? Your decision might be prudent in preventing a danger. But was it really a danger? You might be actually planting timid/wimpy seeds deep in your children's young minds. As parents, anything you do in front of your children means something. The fact is you'd never know what will or will not happen if you simply evade anything you deem suspious. (We pack because we do not want to live in constant fear, right ?!)
3) Just as you are going to pass them by, they show their weapons on you. Now what ?
4) What if they find out your CHL in your wallet and/or possibly your pistol in your pocket or waistband, do they go panic or realize you are trained and ...
5) If they take you weapon from you, do you think you and your family are exposed to even more escalated danger ? What to do now ?

Oops, I made myself sounded like an anti now. No, I full heartedly support our Second Amendment rights. I am a NRA member ...

Anyway, your comment ? What would you do if it were you walking with your non-CHL friend and looking at something that COULD/MIGHT go bad ?

Thanks

[atxgun]

If you're CHL and carrying isn't the whole point of that to not let it escalate to where they are looking through your wallet to discover a license and further take a weapon from you? If they show a weapon first I would think that you would have every reason to then defend yourself with every means necessary.

*disclaimer I've just been hanging around this board and don't yet have my CHL

[spider373]

Let's face it. If you let somebody draw on you, it is probably too late for you to have a lot of choice/means.

[atxgun]

Let's face it. If you let somebody draw on you, it is probably too late for you to have a lot of choice/means.

I think that depends on what type of weapon they draw. Even considering a cocked firearm you still may have a chance if they're preoccupied looking left & right over their shoulders. :

[Glock 23]

Let's face it. If you let somebody draw on you, it is probably too late for you to have a lot of choice/means.

about the only thing I would be thinking at that point:
"can I get mine out before he gets a chance to cap me?"

[Rex B]

Most of us get more gun training during our CHL qualifying than the typical gun-pointing BG gets in a lifetime. How many times do you hear on the news about a shootout where X rounds were fired, brass littering the pavement, and not one hit?
You have an important psychological advantage: He started into this confrontation with an intent to coerce your wallet from you, and probably does not expect to have to shoot. If he shoots, he loses. That brings a hesitation into his actions. You, on the other hand, intend to draw and fire as soon as you possibly can. If you shoot and hit first, you win.
Personally, I'd bet my life I can shoot better than the lowlife trying to steal my wallet. I just try to avoid situations where I have to.

[Wildscar]

Every situation is different. but I can tell you this. No matter what the situation is I'll not be givin up my firearm while I still draw a breath

[Mithras61]

Most of us get more gun training during our CHL qualifying than the typical gun-pointing BG gets in a lifetime. How many times do you hear on the news about a shootout where X rounds were fired, brass littering the pavement, and not one hit?
You have an important psychological advantage: He started into this confrontation with an intent to coerce your wallet from you, and probably does not expect to have to shoot. If he shoots, he loses. That brings a hesitation into his actions. You, on the other hand, intend to draw and fire as soon as you possibly can. If you shoot and hit first, you win.
Personally, I'd bet my life I can shoot better than the lowlife trying to steal my wallet. I just try to avoid situations where I have to.

The experience level of BGs is much greater than you think. According to a recent FBI study, BGs actually practice as much as 14 times per year or more, because they generally believe LEOs do as well and want to be prepared for that shootout. In fact, in an exchange of this type, it is usually the LEO who is shooting & missing more than the BG.

I also wouldn't gamble on what his intentions are or that he will hesitate, since he has already threatened deadly force. In fact, I think if you believe this you really may be gambling with your life. Historical evidence shows that you are just as likely to be shot after the robbery if they have displayed a weapon, regardless of whether or not you cooperate, and that they are unlikely to hesitate to use the gun at all either way.

The fact is that you are VERY likely to be shot in either case (cooperate OR fight back) if the BG displays a firearm, so the question then changes to "How do I survive this (and hopefully prevent this BG from harming my spouse/family)?" instead of "Should I try to pull my pistol & fight back?"

[Rex B]

with all that in mind, what would YOU do in this scenario?

[seamusTX]

Once during our usual lunch hour walk on a quiet trail, we, I and a coworker, saw these two young men wandering on the trail closing to a street corner, peeking/looking at us etc, anyway, suspiciously. We looked at each other. I could feel his tension. I knew I was nervous. Remember this was a trail we always walked. Like it or not, we did not have much choice. Anyway, before we could decide anything, we came up to them in our usual brisk walk. We looked at them directly and said hello as we usually did to other strangers. Well, they stepped aside and hello'ed back. Nothing happened. We never saw them again.

This was likely a scenario where they were looking for victims and decided that you weren't going to be an easy victim. That is often the case when you are confident and aware of your surroundings. I had a similar incident a couple of weeks ago.

However, it is also possible that they were waiting to complete a drug deal or something that did not involve you.

If the situation calls for it, you can secure your weapon without revealing it. That gesture can warn off a thug who is just looking to steal and get away. OTOH, it can trigger a violent response from someone who does intend to attack you.

This is all just in general. Each scenario will have details that determine the best response.

- Jim

[Wildscar]

so the question then changes to "How do I survive this (and hopefully prevent this BG from harming my spouse/family)?" instead of "Should I try to pull my pistol & fight back?"

Most of the time those two have to go together.

[Mithras61]

with all that in mind, what would YOU do in this scenario?

It would depend on the range involved, and my immediate assessment of the situation. At 3 foot range or less, it is unlikely you will be able to simply draw & fire quickly enough to prevent the BG shooting you, but you may be able to deflect the gun away from you while moving off sight-line and get your weapon into play. If we are talking about ranges greater than about 3 feet, you may be able to evade while drawing. In either case, standing there discussing things with the BG is a poor plan unless you are attempting to lull him into a false sense of security, which they will be unlikely to tolerate well.

I would like to believe that my alert status would be high enough that anyone who gets close enough to be a threat has been assessed for that well before they get the drop on me, but the fact is that BGs count on the element of surprise. They will avoid picking someone as a victim who doesn't look or act like a victim, so stay alert, act like you aren't in your own little bubble-world and like you are assessing the world around you for threats, and they will usually go after softer targets.

Some things you should be practising include CQB and Hand-to-Hand techniques, and moving while drawing & shooting so that when the time comes you are prepared to do so. If you routinely walk in areas which are less-frequented (such as hiking/biking trails) with your spouse or family, they should also practice things like moving behind or away from the threat so that you can work as a team.

[spider373]

I know this was a catch situation. I agree we got away possbly because we did not look like a soft target.

On another hand, this morning I came up a thought. Why do we take a step back to look at the law itself. Maybe a political approach can help.

Why do we have to carry our CHL ? When a LEO approach a person, he/she has no idea if the person has a gun or not. Before he is shown your CHL, he has to be highly alert. In fact, unless the LEO has a cause to search, he would not be able to find out if he is facing a criminal with a gun under his seat ready to do harm. Bad guys are bad because they do not care about the law and order. If you are a good guy, producing CHL or not makes no real difference to his safety when he/she starts approaching you. Yes, showing CHL should relieve him a bit, after he already makes visual checks. So, carry the CHL licence should be an optional choice, not mandatory.

Like the walk scenario, I can deep carry without alerting him my possible possesion of a weapon when he runs through my wallet and allow me to possibly have better chances.

[seamusTX]

Why do we have to carry our CHL ? ... So, carry the CHL licence should be an optional choice, not mandatory.

As long as carrying a handgun without a CHL is a crime, people who have a CHL need to carry it. I don't see any way to avoid that. The police cannot always use the DPS system to confirm that someone has a CHL.

- Jim

[spider373]

As long as carrying a handgun without a CHL is a crime, people who have a CHL need to carry it. I don't see any way to avoid that.

That's why I call it a political solution. We have to change the current law concerning CHL.

The police cannot always use the DPS system to confirm that someone has a CHL

It does not matter very much. Unless you tell the office you have a gun with you or he has a proper cause to search and find weapon, he does not need to confirm anything. Why does a LEO needs to confirm your CHL for a routine traffic violation, when he does not need to do anything more when writing up somebody else without CHL, who is equally likely to have a hidden weapon, more likely to be a bad guy than a CHL like you ?

When an officer has enough reason to search someone, it must be something pretty serious anyway. In that case or if involved in a shooting incident, a person is gonna to be detained until checked out, CHL or not. Isn't it.

BTW, I can also keep my CHL in my car, for instance, with my insurance paper, just for that.