First off--I hope your dog gets better and stays safe! ... And I think a person should be within their rights to use deadly force an any attacking dog (maybe even little purse dogs ;)).
cheezit wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:18 pm
Or is it a case of irresponsible owners?
... She also tried to sell me than many other breeds can do a lot more damage in a full on attack - like a German Shepard. That might be true but Shepards have a lot more predictable behavior than pits do, IMHO.
You are actually both wrong--German Shepherd bite strength 238 PSI; American Pit Bull 235 PSI (so basically the same). American temperament society test pass rate: German Shepard 85.3%; American Pit Bull 87.4%. Pits actually score higher than golden retrievers (85.6%) and collies (80.8%).
Sorry--I'm a nerd on these types of things. Pitt Bulls are the AR-15 of Dogs. They are not significantly more dangerous than others just like guns--but are still dangerous. People also often see a scary dog and often incorrectly identify it as a pit (https://www.earth.com/news/pit-bull-bite-statistics/ "A study of shelter staff and veterinarians found that the participants over-identified dogs as pit bulls. Only 25 pit bull-type breeds were used in the study, yet participants labeled 62 dogs as pit bulls. Additionally, victims may be more likely to report dog bites from breeds they deem dangerous over less intimidating breeds.") Not saying that you are doing this at all--just pointing out that the stats on this subject are often wrong/over-inflated. There are lots of stats/studies on the issue. E.g. boxers are often mistaken for pits.
Hoodasnacks wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:00 pm
First off--I hope your dog gets better and stays safe! ... And I think a person should be within their rights to use deadly force an any attacking dog (maybe even little purse dogs ;)).
cheezit wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:18 pm
Or is it a case of irresponsible owners?
... She also tried to sell me than many other breeds can do a lot more damage in a full on attack - like a German Shepard. That might be true but Shepards have a lot more predictable behavior than pits do, IMHO.
You are actually both wrong--German Shepherd bite strength 238 PSI; American Pit Bull 235 PSI (so basically the same). American temperament society test pass rate: German Shepard 85.3%; American Pit Bull 87.4%. Pits actually score higher than golden retrievers (85.6%) and collies (80.8%).
Sorry--I'm a nerd on these types of things. Pitt Bulls are the AR-15 of Dogs. They are not significantly more dangerous than others just like guns--but are still dangerous. People also often see a scary dog and often incorrectly identify it as a pit (https://www.earth.com/news/pit-bull-bite-statistics/ "A study of shelter staff and veterinarians found that the participants over-identified dogs as pit bulls. Only 25 pit bull-type breeds were used in the study, yet participants labeled 62 dogs as pit bulls. Additionally, victims may be more likely to report dog bites from breeds they deem dangerous over less intimidating breeds.") Not saying that you are doing this at all--just pointing out that the stats on this subject are often wrong/over-inflated. There are lots of stats/studies on the issue. E.g. boxers are often mistaken for pits.
I've fostered some very sweet lovable Pits. However, ever statistical study I find seems to agree that the Pit causes the greatest number of dog bites www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-fa ... s-2018.php not really close or debatable.
Hoodasnacks wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:00 pm
You are actually both wrong--German Shepherd bite strength 238 PSI; American Pit Bull 235 PSI (so basically the same). American temperament society test pass rate: German Shepard 85.3%; American Pit Bull 87.4%. Pits actually score higher than golden retrievers (85.6%) and collies (80.8%).
Sorry--I'm a nerd on these types of things. Pitt Bulls are the AR-15 of Dogs. They are not significantly more dangerous than others just like guns--but are still dangerous. People also often see a scary dog and often incorrectly identify it as a pit (https://www.earth.com/news/pit-bull-bite-statistics/ "A study of shelter staff and veterinarians found that the participants over-identified dogs as pit bulls. Only 25 pit bull-type breeds were used in the study, yet participants labeled 62 dogs as pit bulls. Additionally, victims may be more likely to report dog bites from breeds they deem dangerous over less intimidating breeds.") Not saying that you are doing this at all--just pointing out that the stats on this subject are often wrong/over-inflated. There are lots of stats/studies on the issue. E.g. boxers are often mistaken for pits.
I've got to be honest. I don't care. I don't accept the equation that a pit bull is like an AR-15. I don't worry about the statistics. My personal experience is that pit bulls are more often owned by people who shouldn't have them and are unwilling to control them than any other breed. I'm not sure what it is that draws these types of people to these dogs. It is not the dogs themselves (like it is not the guns themselves) but the "users" I have made it a point in the past to ignore other people and their dogs. I frankly don't care what they do with their animals - as long as it doesn't affect me. Now, this breed is affecting me and my family. I'm no longer neutral on them. That is just the way that it is going to be, right or wrong. Call me what you will.
Hoodasnacks wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:00 pm
You are actually both wrong--German Shepherd bite strength 238 PSI; American Pit Bull 235 PSI (so basically the same). American temperament society test pass rate: German Shepard 85.3%; American Pit Bull 87.4%. Pits actually score higher than golden retrievers (85.6%) and collies (80.8%).
Sorry--I'm a nerd on these types of things. Pitt Bulls are the AR-15 of Dogs. They are not significantly more dangerous than others just like guns--but are still dangerous. People also often see a scary dog and often incorrectly identify it as a pit (https://www.earth.com/news/pit-bull-bite-statistics/ "A study of shelter staff and veterinarians found that the participants over-identified dogs as pit bulls. Only 25 pit bull-type breeds were used in the study, yet participants labeled 62 dogs as pit bulls. Additionally, victims may be more likely to report dog bites from breeds they deem dangerous over less intimidating breeds.") Not saying that you are doing this at all--just pointing out that the stats on this subject are often wrong/over-inflated. There are lots of stats/studies on the issue. E.g. boxers are often mistaken for pits.
I've got to be honest. I don't care. I don't accept the equation that a pit bull is like an AR-15. I don't worry about the statistics. My personal experience is that pit bulls are more often owned by people who shouldn't have them and are unwilling to control them than any other breed. I'm not sure what it is that draws these types of people to these dogs. It is not the dogs themselves (like it is not the guns themselves) but the "users" I have made it a point in the past to ignore other people and their dogs. I frankly don't care what they do with their animals - as long as it doesn't affect me. Now, this breed is affecting me and my family. I'm no longer neutral on them. That is just the way that it is going to be, right or wrong. Call me what you will.
Ima call you...prudent. Cautious. Responsible. Right.
"When democracy turns to tyranny, the armed citizen still gets to vote." Mike Vanderboegh
"The Smallest Minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." – Ayn Rand
Maybe/Maybe not, but you were extremely lucky. Next time is the unknown/concern now. You or someone else faces a "next time" since the dog wasn't dealt with this time. Not to mention it now has a taste for blood that it may not have had the other day. I hope you never see it again, but not being prepared next time, after a big warning, is unwise.
To help track downed wild game I let my tracking dog drink a little blood, its not mean. Maybe human blood is different?
One of my biggest mistakes in life...Is Believing people will show me the same love I've shown them.
Maybe/Maybe not, but you were extremely lucky. Next time is the unknown/concern now. You or someone else faces a "next time" since the dog wasn't dealt with this time. Not to mention it now has a taste for blood that it may not have had the other day. I hope you never see it again, but not being prepared next time, after a big warning, is unwise.
To help track downed wild game I let my tracking dog drink a little blood, its not mean. Maybe human blood is different?
We used to feed our cow dogs, the heart when we had a cow butchered. They certainly seemed to enjoy it, but never saw them go to the source for one.
NOW… let’s address the real concern… what you are probably worried about is whether your dog is now dangerous after biting someone or another animal. Possibly. Once a dog bites, it might bite again. Some learning has taken place, and you need to reverse that learning immediately. It is IMPORTANT now to set up an evaluation and behavior lesson for your dog. I recommend starting with a Behavior Lesson, but be prepared that you will probably need to do additional lessons. Each lesson is customized. These issues sometimes require diligent effort on your part, so you have to be prepared for that. Don’t let this go on, because it will only get worse if you ignore it. Biting and fighting can usually be fixed
I'm not suggesting that he is the authority on the matter but he is better as a resource than others. This is my main concern about the dog that attacked mine. it isn't the blood but the learned behavior. I've sent a warning to a woman down the street who walks two poodles. She would not have been as successful at defending her two as I was my one.
To help track downed wild game I let my tracking dog drink a little blood, its not mean. Maybe human blood is different?
We used to feed our cow dogs, the heart when we had a cow butchered. They certainly seemed to enjoy it, but never saw them go to the source for one.
We're drifting now but it's completely different... feeding a dog or giving a tracking dog a scent to follow is not at all in the same realm.
"taste for blood" Is a figure of speech... but the underlying meaning is that once a dog attacks on its own, it's likelihood of another attack is much greater than a dog who has not previously attacked.
To help track downed wild game I let my tracking dog drink a little blood, its not mean. Maybe human blood is different?
We used to feed our cow dogs, the heart when we had a cow butchered. They certainly seemed to enjoy it, but never saw them go to the source for one.
We're drifting now but it's completely different... feeding a dog or giving a tracking dog a scent to follow is not at all in the same realm.
"taste for blood" Is a figure of speech... but the underlying meaning is that once a dog attacks on its own, it's likelihood of another attack is much greater than a dog who has not previously attacked.
I know what you were going for. Should have used the little jester face thing, and you're right we are getting off topic.
chasfm11 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:28 pm
The Animal Control officer claimed that she rescues dogs that picked up for aggressive behavior.
That's exactly what she was "practicing" and not Animal Control. You have an injured dog, severely, and that was all that was before her and on her plate. Not the welfare of the attacking dog.
Chas, if I were you, I’d start audio-recording any further conversations you have with that particular animal control officer. You may be able to use that to leverage some positive action out of them, vis a vis dangerous dogs and her feckless attitude.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”
chasfm11 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:28 pm
The Animal Control officer claimed that she rescues dogs that picked up for aggressive behavior.
That's exactly what she was "practicing" and not Animal Control. You have an injured dog, severely, and that was all that was before her and on her plate. Not the welfare of the attacking dog.
Chas, if I were you, I’d start audio-recording any further conversations you have with that particular animal control officer. You may be able to use that to leverage some positive action out of them, vis a vis dangerous dogs and her feckless attitude.
Great suggestion. My pocket recorder will be on for all future meetings with her. For reference, I just got an email from our street's distribution list. There is another pit bull who has been seen attacking the legs of the horses of some of the neighbors - I said that I live on a rural road. There was no mention of Animal Control being called about that dog. I will include that fact in my next conversation with the officer, too. By the way, the good news is that my dog did not have internal injuries and her shoulder is improving with the anti-inflamitory treatment.
Hoodasnacks wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:00 pm
You are actually both wrong--German Shepherd bite strength 238 PSI; American Pit Bull 235 PSI (so basically the same). American temperament society test pass rate: German Shepard 85.3%; American Pit Bull 87.4%. Pits actually score higher than golden retrievers (85.6%) and collies (80.8%).
Sorry--I'm a nerd on these types of things. Pitt Bulls are the AR-15 of Dogs. They are not significantly more dangerous than others just like guns--but are still dangerous. People also often see a scary dog and often incorrectly identify it as a pit (https://www.earth.com/news/pit-bull-bite-statistics/ "A study of shelter staff and veterinarians found that the participants over-identified dogs as pit bulls. Only 25 pit bull-type breeds were used in the study, yet participants labeled 62 dogs as pit bulls. Additionally, victims may be more likely to report dog bites from breeds they deem dangerous over less intimidating breeds.") Not saying that you are doing this at all--just pointing out that the stats on this subject are often wrong/over-inflated. There are lots of stats/studies on the issue. E.g. boxers are often mistaken for pits.
I've got to be honest. I don't care. I don't accept the equation that a pit bull is like an AR-15. I don't worry about the statistics. My personal experience is that pit bulls are more often owned by people who shouldn't have them and are unwilling to control them than any other breed. I'm not sure what it is that draws these types of people to these dogs. It is not the dogs themselves (like it is not the guns themselves) but the "users" I have made it a point in the past to ignore other people and their dogs. I frankly don't care what they do with their animals - as long as it doesn't affect me. Now, this breed is affecting me and my family. I'm no longer neutral on them. That is just the way that it is going to be, right or wrong. Call me what you will.
I don't blame you at all for feeling that way and I would probably feel that way too...it just makes me sad to see the statement of a "breed" affecting you, its a bad dog owned by a bad owner (just like an AR15). Their reputation is what attracts bad owners, and the reputation would likely be false but for the bad owners. It is a sad circle.
I will call you a responsible and diligent husband/father/pet owner for being cautious...and that is all.
I feel your pain man and I understand where your focus is at for getting your girl taken care of. That is the main goal for now.
Hoodasnack is mostly correct and I don't know what all his experience is. Mine is in training dogs for Schutzhund, Mondioring, and Ringsport at the local, state, national and even international levels. Tracking, obedience, protection, and scent discrimination. I've also done a lot of work with the AKC and their temperament test and maybe Hoodsnack has too. That score is based on those that were willing to attempt that testing. There are so many more poorly bred dogs that would never ever be temperament tested because there is no way they would pass out there it is unbelievable to those outside the dog world. Not nearly as much ignorance as liberals have for firearms since Hoodasnack referred to the Pit as the AR of dogs, but it would really shock some folks.
TAM had a great idea of recording all conversations with the idiot of an animal control person. I would also suggest doing as much communication with email as you can to also have her words in writing. CYA for sure and maybe bury hers in her own ignorant/bias words. One thing I'm curious about is that you mentioned this dog is back at your neighbors house in a fenced yard and barking at other dogs passing by. How in the world is that idiot animal control officer evaluating this dog if it is not at animal control under quarantine? That is not how this is supposed to work. She's acting like more of an advocate for the attacker rather than the victim or the safety of the rest of the community.
Also, IIRC, it sounds like the Pit owner may not be an actual resident, but visitor and the dog may be gone before long. Could that be a reason why animal control doesn't want to proceed with anything against a non-resident and just hoping the problem will go away on its own?
EDIT to add: I was so focused on what I've done in the last 20 years with dogs that I'd forgotten some stuff before that almost 30 years ago. I was heavily involved in rescue with the DFW Rottweiler Club and fostered and evaluated nearly all of their rescues brought in that were reported to be aggressive. That amounted to roughly 80-100 dogs over a 5 year period that came into my house. I only had to have two of them euthanized. Most of the ones thought to be aggressive were either abused by a man and distrusted any man. It took time and the help of some of my schutzhund club members, but we rehabilitated all of those. Many others were just typical Rottie behavior that the previous owners didn't understand and weren't prepared for or capable of handling.
I'm certainly not the be-all-end-all of dog trainers or behavioral specialists, but I have seen and done a lot. Heck, my own brother and sister don't listen to me when they ask about issues with their dogs. I tell them how to fix this or correct that and they ignore my advice and their dog's behavior continues. Recently, over at my sister's, I fixed an issue with their 8 month old pup in about 15 minutes and they were amazed. I explained what I did and they said they'd never read that in any book about this breed. I explained that it wasn't going to be in a book and where I got that knowledge from. Even after that, they still don't listen on many things and they've got a really smart dog that is training them well!
Lena, one of our other members here, has also done A LOT with dogs, just in a slightly different direction than my experiences.
Last edited by C-dub on Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I am not and have never been a LEO. My avatar is in honor of my friend, Dallas Police Sargent Michael Smith, who was murdered along with four other officers in Dallas on 7.7.2016. NRA Patriot-Endowment Lifetime Member---------------------------------------------Si vis pacem, para bellum.................................................Patriot Guard Rider
The pitbull on our street had been loose many times, when 911 is called the first thing they ask "has anyone been bit?". You don't have to be bit to be afraid of a charging pitbull, most of the times the deputy comes out and has a talk with the owner. I was told that our neighborhood has a leash law and if the deputy won't issue a ticket, to ask for a supervisor and tell them you want a ticket issued.
Hoodasnacks wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:53 pm
I don't blame you at all for feeling that way and I would probably feel that way too...it just makes me sad to see the statement of a "breed" affecting you, its a bad dog owned by a bad owner (just like an AR15). Their reputation is what attracts bad owners, and the reputation would likely be false but for the bad owners. It is a sad circle.
I will call you a responsible and diligent husband/father/pet owner for being cautious...and that is all.
So help me here.
1. The dog in my sisters case, when not monitored ever second by its owner jumped a fence and attacked my sisters dog.
2. The dog in my case deliberately by passed its owners, stealthily seeking its opportunity get out through a door to attack my dog.
3. While I'm less than enamored with the Animal Services rep on a number of levels, one of her points was that each of these dogs was displaying a "prey behavior that was breed into them. According to her, it is their nature. Ergo, some set of overt actions is REQUIRED, if they are to be safe in society and not running around killing other peoples pets. You may have experience that says that it is possible to do that and I don't for a minute doubt that. But just as it is not a requirement for every gun owner who buys a gun to take classes and demonstrate an understanding of the four safety rules, there is no requirement for a pit bull owner to take the overt steps to bring their dogs to a level where they are safe in society As a result, some are and some are not. My experience is that it is the younger males who have not be neutered that pose the greatest risk. Like the training, many pit owners seem unwilling to neuter their dogs.
Can you see why I now believe that too many pit bulls are like someone leaving a loaded, chambered gun around for the wrong person to pick up? They are smart. They are crafty. They are going to seek every opportunity to do what nature calls them to do. Are they the only breed like that? Absolutely not. But they are the only breed that, as you say, is attracted by irresponsible owners. I've known Akita owners. I fear that breed a lot more than pits. But there seems to be a greater sense of responsibility among those owners.
I wish it weren't that way. But that is reality. As I talk to other small dog owners in my area, we are afraid to have our pets out in public. Another loose pit mix trying to chase down horses on my block was the absolute last straw for me. My life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness are being infringed.
