Would you "open carry"?

[GSchretter]

No because then the bad guys knows where it is and can go for yours.

Also you might be treated differently since there are so many worthless liberals around here.

[flintknapper]

Just a data point to add...

Manchester is the largest city in New Hampshire, with approximately 180,000 in the town/metro area. Every Tuesday, a group of friends gathers at Murphy's Taproom to meet and socialize; a typical Tuesday night is about 40 people, and it's quickly growing.

It's typical for there to be 6-12 people openly carrying there, and probably twice that carrying concealed. Yes, openly carrying. In a bar. All perfectly legal.



(Yes, we have some gorgeous women in the Free State Project! Liberty is sexy!)

The lighting isn't the best for shooting video, but Dave is a (formerly professional) videographer who edits the entire thing in-camera and then uploads straight to Youtube. It's very impressive to have zero post-editing.

That was a very interesting video, thanks for sharing.

I hope that continues for them.

I noticed 7 different people in the video carrying openly.

I am obligated to add those to the poll which stands at 68. If we add the three that Frankie cited and this 7..the total becomes 78 who OC.

[frankie_the_yankee]

I started a thread on thehighroad.org

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.p ... 730&page=2

Here's a recent post.

I "OC'd"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As a security guard, one of my co-workers had his gun snatched
(he had no retention training) I caught a guy reaching for mine (the hairs on the back of my neck actually warned me) after that I bought retention holsters, they're worth the money.
My current strategy is to conceal but I like open for those really hot days...I'm thinking of getting a a S&W 642 to conceal better and so I could join that thread over there in revolvers....I'm so fashionable sometimes...why isn't there a sp101 club.....oh yeah....topic.

OC is legal here in NV but I never see it, I like it being legal so if I print or someone see's it I'm not actually breaking a law.
I wish we had some sort of right, like free speech or freedom of the press, for firearms.
It would be nice to be able to keep and bear arms without having to worry about jail all the time.
__________________

Another OC gun snatch. And an attempted snatch. Another guy who "never" sees people OC-ing even though it is legal where he lives.

Love the reference to the 2A at the end! I fully share the sentiment.

[flintknapper]

I started a thread on thehighroad.org

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.p ... 730&page=2

Here's a recent post.

I "OC'd"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As a security guard, one of my co-workers had his gun snatched
(he had no retention training) I caught a guy reaching for mine (the hairs on the back of my neck actually warned me) after that I bought retention holsters, they're worth the money.
My current strategy is to conceal but I like open for those really hot days...I'm thinking of getting a a S&W 642 to conceal better and so I could join that thread over there in revolvers....I'm so fashionable sometimes...why isn't there a sp101 club.....oh yeah....topic.

OC is legal here in NV but I never see it, I like it being legal so if I print or someone see's it I'm not actually breaking a law.
I wish we had some sort of right, like free speech or freedom of the press, for firearms.
It would be nice to be able to keep and bear arms without having to worry about jail all the time.
__________________

Another OC gun snatch. And an attempted snatch. Another guy who "never" sees people OC-ing even though it is legal where he lives.

Love the reference to the 2A at the end! I fully share the sentiment.

I see you didn't get too warm a reception over there.

I should start my poll there too, it may turn up some info.

Did you notice this guys post:

Biggest group of open carriers I ever saw in public was more than 100, felt pretty safe that day.

I'll go over there this evening and see if I can verify that. A hundred incidents is worth looking into.

Thanks for the heads up.

Flint

[frankie_the_yankee]

I see you didn't get too warm a reception over there.

Actually, if you read the whole thread there is quite a broad spectrum of opinion. Some favor OC, some believe, as I do, that it has tactical disadvantages in some situations, and some are opposed to OC.

One person who frequently OC's says he CC's when he visits Philladelphia, essentially for tactical reasons.

I should start my poll there too, it may turn up some info.

Could be interesting.

Did you notice this guys post:

Biggest group of open carriers I ever saw in public was more than 100, felt pretty safe that day.

Yes. But no detail was provided so it's hard to say what it means. They could have been cops for all we know.

Please note that I fully acknowledge that in the case where 2 or more people are OC'ing together, the tactical situation completely reverses so as to favor OC. A BG may decide that an individual OC'er might be an easy mark, but reason tells us that taking on 2 armed individuals would be far more difficult. A BG can only assault one at a time, right? And the other person, who the BG can plainly see is armed would have an opportunity to bring their weapon to bear while the BG is occuppied going after the first person.

That is a risk that almost no BG, or group of BG's, would decide to take, IMO.

[flintknapper]

Please note that I fully acknowledge that in the case where 2 or more people are OC'ing together, the tactical situation completely reverses so as to favor OC. A BG may decide that an individual OC'er might be an easy mark, but reason tells us that taking on 2 armed individuals would be far more difficult. A BG can only assault one at a time, right? And the other person, who the BG can plainly see is armed would have an opportunity to bring their weapon to bear while the BG is occuppied going after the first person.

That is a risk that almost no BG, or group of BG's, would decide to take, IMO.

I agree completely, however the purpose of my poll is not to verify that there is greater safety "in numbers".

What I am looking for... foremost, are people that OC in urban areas, secondary to that: How many have experienced a "snatching" or "attempt".

These two subjects form the basis for our discussion. So, without attaching yet another restriction....I will proceed with the second poll.

THR has a large membership...but I don't know how many of them reside in OC states. You are a member there...so you can easily watch the poll results, whatever they are.

Thanks,

Flint.

[Kalrog]

The more I think about it, the more I would like to OC. Maybe not on a daily basis, but most certainly to have the option to do so. And I think I would take advantage of that option some times to educate folks. Ignorance can be fixed... stupidity can't. And if I could just educate an ignorant person or two I would consider it worth it.

[flintknapper]

Second poll in place @ THR:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=307098

[txgho1911]

I open carry almost daily. I do have limits on how I can carry due to work policies and some social events. I usually keep the strong side arm touching the top of my pistol when I am in crowded public areas. I know I need to expand on the training I have had with more of the same plus some in retention.
I carry in a slide. Fullsize 1911 fills the holster. Snug fit that resists a correct strait draw is much more difficult if the draw includes pressures counter or cross from the correct strait out motion. No other devices or other impediments stand in the way of someone taking this from me.

Also I do turn my body away from people in public who are or will be in close proximity to me. If my senses give me alarm I will be leaving.

No one has ever attempted to take my piece from the holster and me.
Any attempt will result in swinging and counter up to and including drawing the weapon. There will be no miss-understanding of what an assault is.

I voted at the thread on THR.

[TX Rancher]

Here’s how it works for me, I want to see OC in Texas…but that doesn’t mean I would OC all the time in public.

But the reasons I would chose not to OC in a given situation do not include worries about a snatch or concerns about losing tactical advantage. Notice I didn’t say those aren’t valid, they are. But they just don’t rise to the level of probability that makes them a major concern for me. The same is true about being harassed by the police.

I would like to have OC for convenience reasons. It would be nice to get out of the car and then put on my cover garment. When I’m in a restaurant that’s a little warm to me I would like to take the cover garment off. When I cross the main road to get to my cattle, it would be nice not to have to put on cover to stay compliant with the law, or when I’m filling my gas tank at the local station, or walking into the little country store I frequent, or the feed store.

In any of those situations it’s possible someone could attempt a snatch, but I firmly believe the likelihood of it happening is small enough it doesn’t need to drive my actions. If I let every “possible� negative drive my life, I would never go out of my house because bad things could happen…I couldn’t eat any food since it could be bad for me…I couldn’t even breath since the air could be tainted…let’s not even talk about driving a car!

Until we have OC and many folks carry, we won’t have a statistically significant population that will allow us to actually define the probabilities…until then all discussions on pro’s and con’s are just speculation…good to have and we should continue them…but they’re still just speculation.

[flintknapper]

Here’s how it works for me, I want to see OC in Texas…but that doesn’t mean I would OC all the time in public.

But the reasons I would chose not to OC in a given situation do not include worries about a snatch or concerns about losing tactical advantage. Notice I didn’t say those aren’t valid, they are. But they just don’t rise to the level of probability that makes them a major concern for me. The same is true about being harassed by the police.

I would like to have OC for convenience reasons. It would be nice to get out of the car and then put on my cover garment. When I’m in a restaurant that’s a little warm to me I would like to take the cover garment off. When I cross the main road to get to my cattle, it would be nice not to have to put on cover to stay compliant with the law, or when I’m filling my gas tank at the local station, or walking into the little country store I frequent, or the feed store.

In any of those situations it’s possible someone could attempt a snatch, but I firmly believe the likelihood of it happening is small enough it doesn’t need to drive my actions. If I let every “possible� negative drive my life, I would never go out of my house because bad things could happen…I couldn’t eat any food since it could be bad for me…I couldn’t even breath since the air could be tainted…let’s not even talk about driving a car!

Until we have OC and many folks carry, we won’t have a statistically significant population that will allow us to actually define the probabilities…until then all discussions on pro’s and con’s are just speculation…good to have and we should continue them…but they’re still just speculation.

Exactly!

[NcongruNt]

I would open carry occasionally, but mostly in non-public situations.

It is irritating to me that it is not legal within the letter of the law to go to my father's house and show him my new carry pistol.

It would be awful nice to be able to legally go help my brother bale hay or put in fence posts at his ranch without sweating inside a cover garment.

I'd enjoy spending a day at the lake on a boat or hang out on the lake front and enjoy myself without sweating through a cover garment on a hot day or worrying about whether my shirt is blowing open every other second.

For the most part, I would still carry concealed, but I can think of many more instances such as those mentioned above where open carry would make life much easier.

I'm not sure you would be illegal on your Dad's or brother's property. (because of the family connection).

But I agree with your scenarios and reasons 100%. That's why I would favor a change to TX law to allow for open carry.

Do you know if there's any specific statute concerning the family connection? I've not turned anything up so far. While I agree that a reasonable LEO wouldn't see any reason to charge me with failing to conceal while showing my dad my pistol in the privacy of his own home, I could envision being questioned by an LEO about open carrying on my brother's property (plainly visible from the road) while working on a fence. He knows the area and knows I don't live there. When he stops to ask me about it, he charges me with intentionally failing to conceal because I do not own, control, or keep residence on the property.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Until we have OC and many folks carry, we won’t have a statistically significant population that will allow us to actually define the probabilities…until then all discussions on pro’s and con’s are just speculation…good to have and we should continue them…but they’re still just speculation.

Exactly!

1) All or the examples tx rancher gave of when/where he would open carry are "rural" situations. I'd probably OC myself in some of those situations.

2) So you're saying that OC is practiced too rarely to have a statistically significant population to define the probabilities, right?

3) Doesn't that sound something like my somewhat less formal formulation that the reason we don't hear of a lot of snatches is because so few people do it? (OC that is.)

4) Since we don't have enough data to calculate a reliable probability, does that mean that we should simply OC blindly because some people tell us that it is a great thing? Or because some people pooh-pooh the possible pitfalls by simply saying that they don't happen or don't happen very often? And we should just take their word for it even though we don't know who they are, what their agenda might be (if any), and whether they know what they are talking about or not?

Or should we, in the absence of reliable statistics, use our powers of inductive and deductive logic to predict the likely (and unlikely) consequences of open carry?

This is no game. The decision to OC or not can have life and death consequences. I'm certainly not going to risk my life merely on the say so of someone who says, "I OC all the time and I've never had a problem.", on the internet. (or anywhere else for that matter) Or, (even less relevant) "I OC because I don't want to ask the gov'mint for permission to carry."

Nope. I'm gonna use my head, examine possible scenarios and situations, maybe try a few "experiments", and figure out what to do using the brains that God gave me.

BTW, at the present time, the THR poll shows 3 people have checked the "I OC and have had a snatch or attempted snatch", not counting the one who says he checked it by mistake. There are 61 who say they OC and have never had a problem, and 6 who say they do not OC out of concern of a possible snatch.

So 3 out of 70 respondants have had snatches or snatch attempts.

Hmmmmm................. Hoooooda thunk it?

Would you get on an airplane if you knew that 3 out of 70 flights ended in crashes?

[flintknapper]

BTW, at the present time, the THR poll shows 3 people have checked the "I OC and have had a snatch or attempted snatch", not counting the one who says he checked it by mistake. There are 61 who say they OC and have never had a problem, and 6 who say they do not OC out of concern of a possible snatch.

So 3 out of 70 respondants have had snatches or snatch attempts.

Hmmmmm................. Hoooooda thunk it?

Would you get on an airplane if you knew that 3 out of 70 flights ended in crashes?

Frankie,

If you are in a plane crash...yours odds of survival are pretty much zilch.

IF your gun were snatched, that is probably all you will lose besides your wallet.

Not one single incident you provided involved the death of the person who was "snatched". If they had been killed... they certainly wouldn't have posted about it would they? Where do you come up with these analogies?

In the polls... ONE person on OpenCarry said he had his gun snatched. On the other site THREE people make the claim. Have you noticed that on neither site...has anyone voting that way entered their name or made a comment?

Not even the ones saying they don't carry out of fear of being snatched. Isn't that odd? Now, I said from the beginning that I would accept all votes because I have no way of verifying them. That is fine.

Currently on THR we have 78 reporting no problem. 3 say they have been snatched.

On OpenCarry the numbers are: 70 reporting no problems. 1 says snatched.

We can add the four that reported being snatched to the ones that carried in urban areas, along with the 7 on the tape that was posted. That will bring us to 159 to 4. I am sure I could find at least a dozen more here:

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/18.html
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/79.html
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/3427.html
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/3995.html

Do you see the trend?

Despite the small sample base (deemed imperfect by me many times), the numbers are plain. Every person will need to assess the risk factor for themselves.

Heck, if one a million is too much for YOU, fine don't OC. But don't present your argument as (certain death) if a person carries openly in urban areas.

We really need to let this die. This is the third time this OC thing has come up. It has gone off on so many tangents I can't even keep up with them all.

You repeatedly challenged anyone for numbers/statistics/events. I have tried my best to accommodate you.

Do what you wish with the numbers above.

Thank you for your participation and thoughts.

Flint.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Do you know if there's any specific statute concerning the family connection? I've not turned anything up so far. While I agree that a reasonable LEO wouldn't see any reason to charge me with failing to conceal while showing my dad my pistol in the privacy of his own home, I could envision being questioned by an LEO about open carrying on my brother's property (plainly visible from the road) while working on a fence. He knows the area and knows I don't live there. When he stops to ask me about it, he charges me with intentionally failing to conceal because I do not own, control, or keep residence on the property.

If you were working on a fence, wouldn't that be "agricultural" work? I thought there was some kind of exemption for people engaged in farming or ranching - a "cowboy rule" if you would.

Maybe someone can find the statute and post it (assuming it exists).

But again, I favor allowing for open carry in TX to cover this and other situations that are presently questionable under current law.