Would you "open carry"?

[randy7601]

Open carry violates my "grey man" sensibilities.

However, I think we should have the choice. After all, my right "keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

[frankie_the_yankee]

Here's a quote from the National Law Enforcement Training Center Homepage.

Jim Lindell developed the LVNR® System in 1970, while Supervisor of Physical Training for the KCMO Police Department Academy. The system was medically researched and extensively field tested, and has proved to be safer, more effective and less controversial than any other known neck restraint method. The LVNR® was updated in 2002 with a new text and video. In 1976, he developed the Handgun/Long Gun Retention and Disarming (HLGRD) System in response to crime statistics indicating that in 1975, 20% of the officers killed were killed with their own handguns. The NLETC is the sole certifying body for these two systems.

Note that the stat cited is for 1975. So far, I do not have a more recent stat. But I still think it is interesting in that 1975 probably represents a period PRIOR to common use of weapon retention training for cops. And since most private citizens have not had this training either, it eliminates one variable.

BTW, here is Ayoob's response to my email.

While I'm not a big fan of open carry as a concept, I'm in favor of keeping it available as a legal option.

There's a thread at http://www.thehighroad.org where a case of an armed citizen's open carry gun being snatched is documented.

For current gun snatch figures, do a Google search under Jim Lindell and National Law ENforcement Training Center.

best,
mas
massadayoob@aol.com

Still looking for more recent gun snatch data.

[anygunanywhere]

Our right to open carry, if we choose to do so, should be returned to us.

If you do not want to open carry, then don't. No one is forcing you to do so. Concealed carry all you want. That is up to you.

There are very few verifiable instances where an individual had their weapon snatched while OCing. These few instances do not add up to any reason to ban OC. If you use that reasoning, it amounts to the same ban on firearms the antis use. Requiring retention training to OC is nonsense, based on the few instances of snatching.

OC is our right. I see no point in arguing about it. Again, when OC is returned to us as an option, I will when I want to. I have OCd when visiting OC Gold states. Try it. You will like it.

Anygun

[frankie_the_yankee]

Our right to open carry, if we choose to do so, should be returned to us.

I agree and have never posted otherwise.

If you do not want to open carry, then don't. No one is forcing you to do so. Concealed carry all you want. That is up to you.

I happen to believe concealed carry is better in urban environments due to the value of tactical surprise and the dangers of having one's gun snatched in crowded situations. Others take issue with this and appear to maintain that snatching is not a problem. IMO, this is bad advice.

There are very few verifiable instances where an individual had their weapon snatched while OCing.

If there were only one it would be too many for me. I only have one life. And I carry to ENHANCE my tactical situation - not to complicate it. I don't want to have to walk around town "all puckered up like a frightened turtle" (to coin a phrase). I'd rather have an ace in the hole.

T

These few instances do not add up to any reason to ban OC. If you use that reasoning, it amounts to the same ban on firearms the antis use. Requiring retention training to OC is nonsense, based on the few instances of snatching.

OC is our right. I see no point in arguing about it. Again, when OC is returned to us as an option, I will when I want to. I have OCd when visiting OC Gold states. Try it. You will like it.

Anygun

I agree that we should have the OC option.

I have tried it in a "gold state" (AZ). I did not like it.

I OC on my ranch all the time. I like it there. I would also like not having to worry about the wind blowing my vest around, etc.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Here's an interesting article on open carry.

http://www.personaldefensesolutions.net ... ourGun.pdf

[flintknapper]

Here's a quote from the National Law Enforcement Training Center Homepage.

Jim Lindell developed the LVNR® System in 1970, while Supervisor of Physical Training for the KCMO Police Department Academy. The system was medically researched and extensively field tested, and has proved to be safer, more effective and less controversial than any other known neck restraint method. The LVNR® was updated in 2002 with a new text and video. In 1976, he developed the Handgun/Long Gun Retention and Disarming (HLGRD) System in response to crime statistics indicating that in 1975, 20% of the officers killed were killed with their own handguns. The NLETC is the sole certifying body for these two systems.

Note that the stat cited is for 1975. So far, I do not have a more recent stat. But I still think it is interesting in that 1975 probably represents a period PRIOR to common use of weapon retention training for cops. And since most private citizens have not had this training either, it eliminates one variable.

BTW, here is Ayoob's response to my email.

While I'm not a big fan of open carry as a concept, I'm in favor of keeping it available as a legal option.

There's a thread at http://www.thehighroad.org where a case of an armed citizen's open carry gun being snatched is documented.

For current gun snatch figures, do a Google search under Jim Lindell and National Law ENforcement Training Center.

best,
mas
massadayoob@aol.com

Still looking for more recent gun snatch data.

As previously stated (numerous times by several people), this will NOT be a reasonable comparison. Apparently, you are committed to doing it anyway.

In the interest of doing that, you have provided us with some stats that are 32 years old. Then you want to make some correlation between LEO then, and Citizens now.

You didn't provide the link to the one person claiming he had his gun snatched, only the link to TheHighRoad. I have no reason to doubt the claim, since Mas stated it. But I would like to see it.

Assuming that is correct, I would be happy to adjust the poll from 50-0 to 50-1.

Since you are determined to run with this COP=CITIZEN thing, here is a site that may help you.

http://www.nleomf.org/TheMemorial/Facts/causes.htm

Here are some more stats:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/2005/table28.htm

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/2005/table34.htm

Go to table 34 (for a 10 yr. period). You'll note the type/caliber weapon used. You can discard all of the Shotguns and Rifles. Also, any handgun calibers not commonly carried by LEO.

The remaining figure is the only number that may have involved the officers own weapon. Of these, we have no idea how many were actually killed with their own weapon.

Pick a percentage of your liking, then compare it to the 840,000 LEO (as of 2007) and you are going to come up with a pretty small number.

[frankie_the_yankee]

I'm looking for thehighroad thread myself. When I find it, I will post the link.

Meanwhile, here's a link to an article that Ayoob wrote that mentions two private citizen snatches. They both involve gun shop owners who were carrying openly in their shops and were ambushed. (The article was for "Shooting Industry" magazine.)

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... i_17608787

And yes, I know that the number of cop snatchings will be small. I just want to see what it is. But keep in mind that it is not only "kills" that are important. Injuries from assault (with their own gun) are also properly included.

BTW, two more LEO snatch cases come to mind from memory. One happened in Atlanta where a female deputy was killed by a (much larger and stronger male) prisoner she was transporting when they were alone in an elevator. This was several months ago or possibly last year. The other was the recent prison break in Huntsville where the female guard was ambushed and assaulted while on horseback and had her gun snatched and was subsequently run over by the BG driving a stolen truck. (I know that technically, she wasn't shot but her OC'd gun WAS snatched.)

So we know it happens, even to trained cops.

[flintknapper]

. But keep in mind that it is not only "kills" that are important. Injuries from assault (with their own gun) are also properly included.

Here ya go: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/2005/assaulted.htm

Knock yourself out.

[frankie_the_yankee]

. But keep in mind that it is not only "kills" that are important. Injuries from assault (with their own gun) are also properly included.

Here ya go: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/2005/assaulted.htm

Knock yourself out.

Already been there. Doesn't break out snatch incidents unless I missed it.

[flintknapper]

. But keep in mind that it is not only "kills" that are important. Injuries from assault (with their own gun) are also properly included.

Here ya go: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/2005/assaulted.htm

Knock yourself out.

Already been there. Doesn't break out snatch incidents unless I missed it.

Nope, you didn't miss it, it isn't there. You have a daunting task ahead of you trying to find this kind of information.

The real shame of it is....it will be wasted time (unless you're just curious).

You just can't compare LEO OC with Citzens OC for a number of reasons, that should be obvious.

We all know a certain number of LEO lose their weapons to BG's every year. I know this better than most people because a personal friend of mine Constable Darrell Lunsford of Garrison Texas (just down the road from me) was killed with his own pistol in 1991.

Of course, it involved a struggle with three men he had stopped, and I suspect the vast majority of incidences you can find would also. Just like these:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/2005/killedsummaries.htm

There are even a couple instances where officers lost their weapons, not because they Open Carry, but because they are frequently dealing with criminals under severe circumstances.

Your time would be better spent pursuing accounts of "citizens" that have been snatched. I will readily accept the ones written about in Mas' story (the gunshop owners). So you're up to two.

[frankie_the_yankee]

I found the link to the OC discussion on thehighroad.org that Mas referred to in his email to me.

I read the whole thread. It looks clean to me. The thread concerns OC in general. It includes opinions from people who absolutely favor OC, those who would like the option to OC, and those who see little value in OC. In other words, a fairly broad range of opinion on the subject.

One member questioned whether gun snatchings ever happen. Another responded with a report of an incident in VA that happened last July. It's on page 2 of the thread.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.p ... rab&page=2

Here's the story itsself.

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/...wtonPatton.htm

A man open carrying a handgun had is stolen from him
Man robbed in the Centreville area

About 4:10 a.m. Sunday, July 30, officers were called to the area of Newton Patent Drive and Newton Tavern Drive. A 21-year-old Centreville-area man was robbed while walking on Newton Patent Drive. Two suspects approached the victim from behind, and placed a metal object up to the victim’s head. The suspects took the victim’s hand gun which he was openly carrying. The suspect’s then fled the area. The victim was not injured.

The suspects were described as black males wearing dark clothing.

Anyone with information about this incident or these suspects is asked to call Crime Solvers at 1-866-411-TIPS (8477) or the police non-emergency number at 703-691-2131.

I checked out opencarry.org. They have a section on OC in the Centerville, VA area. No mention of this incident in the time period around 7/30/2007.

Oh well.

[DoubleJ]

back-up gun.
sure woulda been nice in that sichy-ation!

[flintknapper]

I found the link to the OC discussion on thehighroad.org that Mas referred to in his email to me.

I read the whole thread. It looks clean to me. The thread concerns OC in general. It includes opinions from people who absolutely favor OC, those who would like the option to OC, and those who see little value in OC. In other words, a fairly broad range of opinion on the subject.

One member questioned whether gun snatchings ever happen. Another responded with a report of an incident in VA that happened last July. It's on page 2 of the thread.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.p ... rab&page=2

Here's the story itsself.

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/...wtonPatton.htm

A man open carrying a handgun had is stolen from him
Man robbed in the Centreville area

About 4:10 a.m. Sunday, July 30, officers were called to the area of Newton Patent Drive and Newton Tavern Drive. A 21-year-old Centreville-area man was robbed while walking on Newton Patent Drive. Two suspects approached the victim from behind, and placed a metal object up to the victim’s head. The suspects took the victim’s hand gun which he was openly carrying. The suspect’s then fled the area. The victim was not injured.

The suspects were described as black males wearing dark clothing.

Anyone with information about this incident or these suspects is asked to call Crime Solvers at 1-866-411-TIPS (8477) or the police non-emergency number at 703-691-2131.

I checked out opencarry.org. They have a section on OC in the Centerville, VA area. No mention of this incident in the time period around 7/30/2007.

Oh well.

Thank You, for your diligence.

This accounting like the other two (gunshop) are basic robberies that involve the person's weapon being taken also. Still, this could happen....so it works for me.

Good job!


edit:

The poll is now up to 57....but there is really no point in updating daily.

I'll take the 3 you cited (because they represent legitimate OC's) and add it to the 50 we already had.

We now stand at 53-3 (pre-update).

Now we're getting somewhere.

[KBCraig]

Just a data point to add...

Manchester is the largest city in New Hampshire, with approximately 180,000 in the town/metro area. Every Tuesday, a group of friends gathers at Murphy's Taproom to meet and socialize; a typical Tuesday night is about 40 people, and it's quickly growing.

It's typical for there to be 6-12 people openly carrying there, and probably twice that carrying concealed. Yes, openly carrying. In a bar. All perfectly legal.



(Yes, we have some gorgeous women in the Free State Project! Liberty is sexy!)

The lighting isn't the best for shooting video, but Dave is a (formerly professional) videographer who edits the entire thing in-camera and then uploads straight to Youtube. It's very impressive to have zero post-editing.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Good data point. Thanks.