I often wonder if CHL is worth it

CHL discussions that do not fit into more specific topics

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TX Rancher
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#31

Post by TX Rancher »

cpix wrote:It’s easy to sit in a class and listen to this is what you do here and this is what you do there, but when it comes down to really cracking the nuts it’s a different situation
True, but sitting through the class will help you better prepare in case it does happen. I don’t really see the downside to learning in this case…
cpix wrote: So I think that you need to be thinking about the possibilities here. Is it better to be dead now or wait in fear for a few days or perhaps a week?
It’s no contest for me. If pulling the trigger buys me another day, or for that matter another second, that sounds fine with me. In that “extra� time anything could happen, maybe I even win and die of old age as a result... it’s time I wouldn’t have if I didn’t pull the trigger, so why not?
cpix wrote: Will they also kill your wife and family? ... I don’t consider this fear; I consider it intelligence.
Of course it’s possible…but I don’t believe my family will end up at any increased risk. I’ve seen no indications of this in anything other then movies and novels. I also don’t see how me allowing a gang member to kill me is guaranteed better for my family…

Having these discussions and deciding on a general response (weapons/no weapons…shoot/no-shoot) is intelligent, no argument from me.
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#32

Post by Liberty »

seamusTX wrote:http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... php?t=9366

I highly recommend this seminar. Where else can you hear from a Texas lawyer who is a shooter and NRA board member?
and literally wrote a lot of the rules.
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#33

Post by oilman »

sbb wrote:cpix,

I firmly believe that the responsibility to defend my family and myself far outweigh the perceived fear of retribution. The main reason that I applied for my CHL was for our protection. I, too, live in the southwest part of town. On any Friday or Saturday night you can hear pistol fire in the 59/Bissonett/Braeswookd area. This area is over 2 miles from my residence. I am in no fear of imminent attack but I will be always on alert. My neighborhood is beautiful, the neighbors are friendly and helpful, and I will not let any gang or their members take by force or fear what I have worked for. Just my $.02
I drive through that intersection every morning. :shock:

And yes I do think about these issues.

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#34

Post by Cipher »

packsaddle wrote:i have felt similar feelings.

as a christian, i often struggle with hypothetical scenarios of deadly force while defending myself.

if a bg pulls a gun on me and demands my money, sometimes i feel like i should just give him my money.

after all, i can always make more money.

but, what if he takes my money and then shoots me in the head?

now, i'm broke AND dead (not that being broke when your dead means much).

so, the bg pulls his gun and demands my money and i pull my gun and the bullets start flying.

one of bg's stray bullets hits an innocent child nearby and kills her.

was my life more important than that of an innocent little girl?

in summary, it is tough carrying a concealed handgun.

personally, i think open carry would deter much more crime and eliminate some of the anxiety of carrying concealed, but that is another thread.

defending myself is an issue i struggle with often, but defending my family (or an innocent child) is something i would definitely not hesitate to do.

as a matter of fact, the primary reason i got a chl is to defend my family or to intervene on behalf of an innocent child.

of course, i hope i am never forced to do either.
What I'm about to say may sound crass, but this is my view on the matter.

First, there is far more than a few credit cards and such in my wallet - it holds my identity, and I'm not about to change it. Furthermore, there are far too many cases of good guy being shot (or stabbed) after meeting bad guy's demands for me to feel safe handing over what's being demanded. Christian or not, I did not make the choice to put myself in that situation, but I will do what it takes to get out of it under MY terms. I would much rather face the BG then and there instead of having him make a late night visit at my house when I may or may not be there.

IF a round from the BG's gun hits an innocent, child or not, it was not my decision, and even if I had complied there could very well be two dead innocents instead of one. I will defend my family, period. While the killing of an innocent does bother me, it bothers me less that my family persevered. My sole responsibility is my family, I must and will do whatever it takes to ensure their survival, even if it means I do not survive.

To expand upon this, I would be very hesitant about going to someone's rescue. If I think, even for a moment, that I don't have the upper hand I will call for Police assistance and remain witness from afar. I am not saying I will not engage a threat to a third party, but I am saying I will keep my mind about it. Me being a dead "hero" does nothing for my family. Now, if the situation is a one-on-one type of deal and my presence is unknown to the BG, chances are he will be dead before he sees me - BUT, if we are talking "gang" like activity, I will watch rather than try to intervene.

As for open carry, I think that's a mistake, IMO. Say I'm a BG and I see someone with a gun on their hip and he doesn't notice me, I could very well pin him/her to a wall and have their gun before they could react. I think having our weapons concealed goes a lot further in preventing crime than it would if we had open carry. A quick visual check would give a BG all the information he needs as to who is a threat and who isn't.

The reason I got a CHL was to protect my family, period. Secondly, I want to at least have a fighting chance in seeing my daughters grow up into the women I know they will become. I was in the Army too, I still have a lot of that Infantry training in me, and I will fight to the death to protect my family and/or their freedom and I will not think twice about redirecting a BG's gun away from them, even if it ultimately kills somebody else.


Now, all that being said, I will mention that I routinely quiz my wife on "what-ifs". She knows when the poop hits the fan she is to get the kids and herself as far away from me as possible. I have a bit of martial arts training under my belt and want some room to work, and if the BG escalates his intentions I want them out of harms way. I've also instructed her in house clearing, something she used last week when she heard a door shut in the house (it was the dog door, but she was home alone). I was proud that she listened to me. I've also instructed her on progressive trigger squeezes, "combat" shooting and cover techniques. This further exemplifies my duty to protect my family, in my absence she must know how to perform a lot of this herself. Of course, I have an awesome wife :D

I know a lot of this was rambling, but I'm trying to stress my point - my family comes first, and a round from a BG's gun hitting an innocent child was neither my doing or my wish, but in all honesty, I would rather it be ANYONE but one of my children.

Guess I should go ahead and put the flame suit on :p
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#35

Post by flintknapper »

I don't anticipate any flames.

Your well thought out and presented opinion is welcome here.
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#36

Post by BrassMonkey »

I agree 100%. Not my family, sorry, but not my problem. This sentiment drew all sorts of harsh responses from my fellow classmates at Linda's Utah class in Roanoke. I thought some of were gonna try to kick my butt, lol... Funny, the ones who were opposite and gung-ho seemed to be cop wannabees... oh well...
Cipher wrote:
packsaddle wrote:i have felt similar feelings.

as a christian, i often struggle with hypothetical scenarios of deadly force while defending myself.

if a bg pulls a gun on me and demands my money, sometimes i feel like i should just give him my money.

after all, i can always make more money.

but, what if he takes my money and then shoots me in the head?

now, i'm broke AND dead (not that being broke when your dead means much).

so, the bg pulls his gun and demands my money and i pull my gun and the bullets start flying.

one of bg's stray bullets hits an innocent child nearby and kills her.

was my life more important than that of an innocent little girl?

in summary, it is tough carrying a concealed handgun.

personally, i think open carry would deter much more crime and eliminate some of the anxiety of carrying concealed, but that is another thread.

defending myself is an issue i struggle with often, but defending my family (or an innocent child) is something i would definitely not hesitate to do.

as a matter of fact, the primary reason i got a chl is to defend my family or to intervene on behalf of an innocent child.

of course, i hope i am never forced to do either.
What I'm about to say may sound crass, but this is my view on the matter.

First, there is far more than a few credit cards and such in my wallet - it holds my identity, and I'm not about to change it. Furthermore, there are far too many cases of good guy being shot (or stabbed) after meeting bad guy's demands for me to feel safe handing over what's being demanded. Christian or not, I did not make the choice to put myself in that situation, but I will do what it takes to get out of it under MY terms. I would much rather face the BG then and there instead of having him make a late night visit at my house when I may or may not be there.

IF a round from the BG's gun hits an innocent, child or not, it was not my decision, and even if I had complied there could very well be two dead innocents instead of one. I will defend my family, period. While the killing of an innocent does bother me, it bothers me less that my family persevered. My sole responsibility is my family, I must and will do whatever it takes to ensure their survival, even if it means I do not survive.

To expand upon this, I would be very hesitant about going to someone's rescue. If I think, even for a moment, that I don't have the upper hand I will call for Police assistance and remain witness from afar. I am not saying I will not engage a threat to a third party, but I am saying I will keep my mind about it. Me being a dead "hero" does nothing for my family. Now, if the situation is a one-on-one type of deal and my presence is unknown to the BG, chances are he will be dead before he sees me - BUT, if we are talking "gang" like activity, I will watch rather than try to intervene.

As for open carry, I think that's a mistake, IMO. Say I'm a BG and I see someone with a gun on their hip and he doesn't notice me, I could very well pin him/her to a wall and have their gun before they could react. I think having our weapons concealed goes a lot further in preventing crime than it would if we had open carry. A quick visual check would give a BG all the information he needs as to who is a threat and who isn't.

The reason I got a CHL was to protect my family, period. Secondly, I want to at least have a fighting chance in seeing my daughters grow up into the women I know they will become. I was in the Army too, I still have a lot of that Infantry training in me, and I will fight to the death to protect my family and/or their freedom and I will not think twice about redirecting a BG's gun away from them, even if it ultimately kills somebody else.


Now, all that being said, I will mention that I routinely quiz my wife on "what-ifs". She knows when the poop hits the fan she is to get the kids and herself as far away from me as possible. I have a bit of martial arts training under my belt and want some room to work, and if the BG escalates his intentions I want them out of harms way. I've also instructed her in house clearing, something she used last week when she heard a door shut in the house (it was the dog door, but she was home alone). I was proud that she listened to me. I've also instructed her on progressive trigger squeezes, "combat" shooting and cover techniques. This further exemplifies my duty to protect my family, in my absence she must know how to perform a lot of this herself. Of course, I have an awesome wife :D

I know a lot of this was rambling, but I'm trying to stress my point - my family comes first, and a round from a BG's gun hitting an innocent child was neither my doing or my wish, but in all honesty, I would rather it be ANYONE but one of my children.

Guess I should go ahead and put the flame suit on :p
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casingpoint
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#37

Post by casingpoint »

The time is fast approaching when shooters of apparent gang members who aggress on them should have an affirmative defense on that specific basis alone. This is effectively what occurs when prosecutors look the other way, and the same principle is in effect in the State of Florida with it's Castle Doctrine extended to cover incidents outside one's dwelling. But it needs to be codified. Object to such a vauge and broad strategy? And who are you depending on to solve the problem, the cops? Hahahahahahaha. Dream on. You see what an intractable mess the cops have on their hands where gangs have really taken hold.

As an addendum, gang members are terrorists, and being as there is a declared war on terrorism, killing a gang member should not even constitute a criminal act. A little overreaching, perhaps, but, hey, I am a message board expert.
Last edited by casingpoint on Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#38

Post by frankie_the_yankee »

casingpoint wrote:The time is fast approaching when shooters of apparent gang members who aggress on them should have an affirmative defense on that specific basis alone. This is effectively what occurs when prosecutors look the other way, and the same principle is in effect in the State of Florida with it's Castle Doctrine extended to cover incidents outside one's dwelling. But it needs to be codified. Object to such a vauge and broad strategy? And who are you depending on to solve the problem, the cops? Hahahahahahaha. Dream on. You see what an intractable mess the cops have on their hands where gangs have really taken hold.
1) TX also has Castle Doctrine to cover incidents outside the home.

2) Oh boy! Just who defines what an "apparent gang member" looks like?

I think that if you ask 6 different people, you will get 6 different answers. How do you tell the real thing from wannabes making some kind of stupid fashion (or even attitude) statement?

Most current legal standards for the legitimate use of deadly force relate it to what a "reasonable person" would do, "knowing what they know at the time". (Note: I am speaking in very general terms here. I already know that these exact words do not appear in any TX DF statute that I am aware of.)

So if someone was a gang member, but you had no way of knowing it at the time that they posed a grave threat to you, that fact would not be a factor in determining whether your actions were those of a reasonable person.
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#39

Post by seamusTX »

You cannot morally punish people for what they might do, or for what they would like to do if they could get away with it.

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#40

Post by BrassMonkey »

Sure you can. Tom Cruise's job is to go back in time and arrest people who are going to kill people.
seamusTX wrote:You cannot morally punish people for what they might do, or for what they would like to do if they could get away with it.

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#41

Post by casingpoint »

"Tom Cruise's job is to go back in time and arrest people who are going to kill people."

My kind of thinking.

Obviously, folks, my posts is a bit of a stretch. But if the enemy approaches you in uniform (baggy pants, certain colored clothes) and signals (makes hand signs) identifying himself as the enemy, just how long do you hold your fire?

(hint--'til you see the whites of his eyes)

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#42

Post by frankie_the_yankee »

casingpoint wrote:"Tom Cruise's job is to go back in time and arrest people who are going to kill people."

My kind of thinking.

Obviously, folks, my posts is a bit of a stretch. But if the enemy approaches you in uniform (baggy pants, certain colored clothes) and signals (makes hand signs) identifying himself as the enemy, just how long do you hold your fire?

(hint--'til you see the whites of his eyes)
No. Until you perceive a grave threat of unlawful deadly force being directed towards you.
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#43

Post by Bart »

casingpoint wrote:As an addendum, gang members are terrorists, and being as there is a declared war on terrorism, killing a gang member should not even constitute a criminal act. A little overreaching, perhaps, but, hey, I am a message board expert.
It simplifies the rules of engagement. It also makes it easy to sleep at night because there's no moral ambiguity. A 12-year-old terrorist is a terrorist and his age is irrelevant.

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#44

Post by lawrnk »

We have the best legal system, and the worst. Too much "victim" mentality forces us to question our rights. It is sad.
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#45

Post by RPBrown »

TX Rancher wrote:
cpix wrote:It’s easy to sit in a class and listen to this is what you do here and this is what you do there, but when it comes down to really cracking the nuts it’s a different situation
True, but sitting through the class will help you better prepare in case it does happen. I don’t really see the downside to learning in this case…
cpix wrote: So I think that you need to be thinking about the possibilities here. Is it better to be dead now or wait in fear for a few days or perhaps a week?
It’s no contest for me. If pulling the trigger buys me another day, or for that matter another second, that sounds fine with me. In that “extra� time anything could happen, maybe I even win and die of old age as a result... it’s time I wouldn’t have if I didn’t pull the trigger, so why not?
cpix wrote: Will they also kill your wife and family? ... I don’t consider this fear; I consider it intelligence.
Of course it’s possible…but I don’t believe my family will end up at any increased risk. I’ve seen no indications of this in anything other then movies and novels. I also don’t see how me allowing a gang member to kill me is guaranteed better for my family…

Having these discussions and deciding on a general response (weapons/no weapons…shoot/no-shoot) is intelligent, no argument from me.
I agree 100%

However, this is the choice that each of us have had to make before we put that application in the mail, before we put that weapon on or in the purse or pocket. Its your choice and no one can make it for you. I've made my choice.
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