This kind of goes with the topic about asking for receipt...

[Aric]

http://newsite.michaelrighi.com/2007/09 ... cuit-city/

I just found it while surfing the web.. take note that it is from Ohio and not Texas but it is interesting still the same.

Note to other legal beagles.. Would not showing your DL (if not carrying) in Texas get you in this kind of trouble?

Also I am not interested in the "I would shoot someone" responses that got the other thread locked, just about the failure to show DL.

[longtooth]

http://newsite.michaelrighi.com/2007/09 ... cuit-city/

I just found it while surfing the web.. take note that it is from Ohio and not Texas but it is interesting still the same.

Note to other legal beagles.. Would not showing your DL (if not carrying) in Texas get you in this kind of trouble?

Also I am not interested in the "I would shoot someone" responses that got the other thread locked, just about the failure to show DL.

AS long as this stays on the DL issue & is polite.
We will delete any argumentative or Rambo responses & if there are many we will lock this one too.
LT

[Mithras61]

http://newsite.michaelrighi.com/2007/09 ... cuit-city/

I just found it while surfing the web.. take note that it is from Ohio and not Texas but it is interesting still the same.

Note to other legal beagles.. Would not showing your DL (if not carrying) in Texas get you in this kind of trouble?

Also I am not interested in the "I would shoot someone" responses that got the other thread locked, just about the failure to show DL.

I'm getting an error when I click the link. Can you post some portion of the article, please?

[frankie_the_yankee]

I still say nice goes a long way.

[longtooth]

I also get an error when I try to access the one in my above post. The original works & the one in your post worked for me.
Wierd But then I am no computer whiz.

[nitrogen]

I was going to post this; I had asked the mods their opinion beforehand, but someone seems to have beaten me to it

As far as displaying your license, §411.205 says:

(a) If a license
holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's person
when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license holder
display identification, the license holder shall display both the license
holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by the
department and the license holder's handgun license. A person who
fails or refuses to display the license and identification as required by
26 GC §411.206. TEXAS CONCEALED HANDGUN LAWS
this subsection is subject to suspension of the person's license as
provided by Section 411.187.
(b) A person commits an offense if the person fails or refuses to
display the license and identification as required by Subsection (a)
after previously having had the person's license suspended for a violation
of that subsection. An offense under this subsection is a Class B
misdemeanor.

To me, that says, "If I'm carrying, and a LEO asks for ID, I'd better provide it.

Today was an eventful day. I drove to Cleveland, reunited with my father’s side of the family and got arrested. More on that arrested part to come.

For the labor day weekend my father decided to host a small family reunion. My sister flew in from California and I drove in from Pittsburgh to visit my father, his wife and my little brother and sister. Shortly after arriving we packed the whole family into my father’s Buick and headed off to the grocery store to buy some ingredients to make monkeybread. (It’s my little sister’s birthday today and that was her cute/bizare birthday request.)

Next to the grocery store was a Circuit City. (The Brooklyn, Ohio Circuit City to be exact.) Having forgotten that it was my sister’s birthday I decided to run in and buy her a last minute gift. I settled on Disney’s “Cars� game for the Nintendo Wii. I also needed to purchase a Power Squid surge protector which I paid for separately with my business credit card. As I headed towards the exit doors I passed a gentleman whose name I would later learn is Santura. As I began to walk towards the doors Santura said, “Sir, I need to examine your receipt.� I responded by continuing to walk past him while saying, “No thank you.�

As I walked through the double doors I heard Santura yelling for his manager behind me. My father and the family had the Buick pulled up waiting for me outside the doors to Circuit City. I opened the door and got into the back seat while Santura and his manager, whose name I have since learned is Joe Atha, came running up to the vehicle. I closed the door and as my father was just about to pull away the manager, Joe, yelled for us to stop. Of course I knew what this was about, but I played dumb and pretended that I didn’t know what the problem was. I wanted to give Joe the chance to explain what all the fuss was for.

I reopened the door to talk with Joe and at this point Joe positioned his body between the open car door and myself. (I was still seated in the Buick.) Joe placed his left hand on the roof of the car and his right hand on the open car door. I asked Joe if there was a problem. The conversation went something like this:

Me: “Is there a problem?�
Joe: “I need to examine your bag and receipt before letting you leave this parking lot.�
Me: “I paid for the contents in this bag. Are you accusing me of stealing?�
Joe: “I’m not accusing you of anything, but I’m allowed by law to look through your bag when you leave.�
Me: “Which law states that? Name the law that gives you the right to examine my bag when I leave a Circuit City.�

Of course Joe wasn’t able to name the law that gives him, a U.S. citizen and Circuit City employee the right to examine anything that I, a U.S. citizen and Circuit City customer am carrying out of the store. I’ve dealt with these scare tactics at other stores in the past including other Circuit Cities, Best Buys and Guitar Centers. I’ve always taken the stance that retail stores shouldn’t treat their loyal customers as criminals and that customers shouldn’t so willingly give up their rights along with their money. Theft sucks and I wish that shoplifters were treated more harshly than they are, but the fact is that I am not a shiplifter shoplifter and shouldn’t have to forfeit my civil rights when leaving a store.

I twice asked Joe to back away from the car so that I could close the door. Joe refused. On three occasions I tried to pull the door closed but Joe pushed back on the door with his hip and hands. I then gave Joe three options:

1. “Accuse me of shoplifting and call the police. I will gladly wait for them to arrive.�
2. “Back away from the car so that I can close the door and drive away.�
3. “If you refuse to let me leave I will be forced to call the police.�

Joe didn’t budge. At this point I pushed my way past Joe and walked onto the sidewalk next to the building. I pulled out my phone and dialed 911.

Two minutes later Brooklyn, Ohio police officer Ernie Arroyo arrived on the scene. As I began to explain the story leading up to Joe Atha preventing my egress from the parking lot, officer Arroyo began to question why I refused to show my receipt in the first place. I explained that I lawfully purchased the contents in the bag and didn’t feel that it was necessary for me to let a Circuit City employee inspect the bag as I left. Officer Arroyo disagreed. He claimed that stores have the right to inspect all receipts and all bags upon leaving their store.

At this point Officer Arroyo asked to see my receipt and driver’s license. I handed over the receipt, and stated that my name is Michael Righi. Again, Officer Arroyo asked to see my driver’s license. The conversation went something like this:

Me: “I’m required by law to state that my name is Michael Righi, but I do not have to provide you with my driver’s license since I am not operating a vehicle.�
Officer Arroyo: “Give me your driver’s license or I will place you under arrest.�
Me: “My name is Michael Righi. I am not willing to provide you with my driver’s license.�
Officer Arroyo: “Turn around and up against the wall.�

At this point I was placed in handcuffs, patted down, had my wallet removed from my back pocket and was placed in the back of Officer Arroyo’s police car. My three siblings sat in the back of the Buick crying their eyes out, which is the only part of today that I regret. I wish my little brother and sisters didn’t have to watch this, but I knew exactly what I was doing and was very careful with my words. Other than putting my family through a little scare I don’t regret anything that happened today.

Officer Arroyo ran my father’s license plate, my driver’s license and inspected my two receipts along with the contents of my bag. He also handed over my Circuit City bag to Joe Atha and allowed him to ensure that in fact I stole nothing from the store.

While being driven down to the station in the back of the police car I struck up a conversation with Officer Arroyo. I asked him if he was surprised that my receipts matched the contents in the bag and in a surprise moment of honesty he admitted that he was. I then asked Officer Arroyo what charges were going to be brought against me. He explained that I had been arrested for failure to produce my driver’s license. I asked him what would happen if I never learned to drive and didn’t have a driver’s license. After all, at the time that he arrested me I was standing on a sidewalk outside a Circuit City. I wasn’t driving a car, and even when I was seated in the Buick I was a back seat passenger. The officer never gave me a satisfactory answer to this question, but promised to explain the law to me after I was booked.

This morning I slept through my alarm clock and was in a hurry to drive to Cleveland. I didn’t have time to iron my shirt, and this is what I regretted while my mugshot was being taken. Listen up kids. Always press your clothes because you never know when you’ll be unlawfully arrested.

Shortly after being booked, fingerprints and all, Officer Arroyo presented me with my charges:

ORD:525.07: Obstructing Official Business (M-2)
(a) No person, without privilege to do so and with purpose to prevent, obstruct or delay the performance by a public official of any authorized act within the public official’s offical capacity shall do any act that hampers or impedes a public official in the performance of the public official’s lawful duties.

Not being able to find the law in the books that states that a citizen must provide a driver’s license while walking through a parking lot, Officer Arroyo had to settle for “obstructing official business.� Keep in mind that the official business that I was supposedly obstructing was business that I initiated by calling the police. I called for help and I got arrested.

My father posted the $300 bail that was needed to get me out of jail and back on my way to Park Avenue Place. (Sorry for the lame Monopoly joke, but it’s my first time being arrested. Cut me some humor slack.) After being released I stuck around the police station for a little while to fill out the necessary paper work to press charges against the Circuit City manager who physically prevented me from leaving the parking lot. I’m most interested in seeing my charges dropped for refusing to present identification, but I view that as a completely separate issue from the store manager interfering with my egress.

I understand that my day would have gone a lot smoother if I had agreed to let loss prevention inspect my bag. I understand that my day would have gone a lot smoother if I had agreed to hand over my driver’s license when asked by Officer Arroyo. However, I am not interested in living my life smoothly. I am interested in living my life on strong principles and standing up for my rights as a consumer, a U.S. citizen and a human being. Allowing stores to inspect our bags at will might seem like a trivial matter, but it creates an atmosphere of obedience which is a dangerous thing. Allowing police officers to see our papers at will might seem like a trivial matter, but it creates a fear-of-authority atmosphere which can be all too easily abused.

I can reluctantly understand having to show a permit to fish, a permit to drive and a permit to carry a weapon. Having to show a permit to exist is a scary idea which I got a strong taste of today.

My hearing is scheduled for September 20th, 2007. I will be contacting the ACLU and the IDP on Tuesday (the next business day), and I plan to fight these charges no matter what it takes. I will provide updates on this page as events unfold.

[bigcarl64]

The website in the link is overloaded with too much traffic, so it just dumps any requests it can't handle. If you keep trying, eventually you will get in.

[Liberty]

Not showing your Drivers license or state ID would get you in trouble if you have a CHL and are carrying.
The guy was acting like an pure donkey. He could have shown the receipt while he was in the store. Otherwise we are not required by law to produce a state ID on dem

Because he was being a big donkey I think the cop was being a donkey also. The charges sound like they are bogus. But when you are a donkey one can expect to be treated as a donkey. That being said I bet the whole thing gets dropped. Except that he will get a court order to stay away from the place.

I know this might not sound inconsistent to what I said in other threads, but it makes a whole world of difference when approached by a store employee in the store and when someone chases you down in a parking lot.

[Lucky45]

I was on his side until he didn't produce ID to the officer. So the arrest in my book is valid, since he is obstructing the officer's investigation. Anyone can say my name is Joe Blow, but a valid ID proves it is fact.

[Xander]

I don't really have an opinion on the original showing a receipt bit. Personally, it's never bothered me, but I understand why it offends some others. However, once the police are there, I think that's it's pretty foolish not to cooperate. For that matter, I think it's pretty foolish to tie up police resources with what boils down to a petty disagreement. If you don't like a store's policy, don't shop there.

[rm9792]

As much as i hat et o say it, i would be suing the store and possibly the officer in question. He had no business arresting hm for failure to show a license as he was not driving and is not required to carry it. Also, i would file whatever charges i could against the store owner for not letting him leave. Assault, detention,? i dont know.

[Lucky45]

He had no business arresting hm for failure to show a license as he was not driving and is not required to carry it.

Where did you get that from??? Or Are you just sleepy?? You know what normally happens to people that don't want to produce ID to LEOs. Since they have no way of determining your legal status in the US, you just get a ride downtown and booked under JOHN DOE until your fingerprints can be verified by the FBI database. And I'm sure that it would be priority #1 to process your info. You might be in jail for few days. Just try it sometime.

[Charles L. Cotton]

This event was in Ohio applying Ohio law. There's no point in arguing what should or should not have been done, when we don't know what their law requires.

As Nitrogen posted, he asked the Moderators about posting a link to this event as somewhat of an update to the Kroger thread that got locked. I appreciate his courtesy in doing so. The Moderators were in the process of discussing this when this this thread was posted.

I'm not particularly happy about a new thread being started that deals with the same issue of a thread that was just locked. It already appears this one is quickly heading in the same argumentative direction.

Chas.

[longtooth]

Close enough for me.
I want to keep my boss happy.
Other Mods said the same thing so I have egg on my face.
Headed to wash it off now.