Inadvertent Entry into 30.06 Area

[TaildraggerJ3]

I've had my CHL since Texas first started issuing ('96 I think). I've always tried to be aware of areas posted with 30.06 signs and either avoid those places or leave my piece locked up at home or in my truck.

I've noticed at our local mall, none of the stores that have outside entrances have 30.06 signs. Many of the places where those stores open into the mall itself are posted with 30.06 & 30.07 signs. (I always tell my wife if she gets shot while in the mall she will at least have the piece of mind knowing it was done by someone who was breaking the law) HOWEVER, I have noticed a few places where people can enter the mall without passing a 30.06 or 30.07 sign. Since I KNOW it's signed in several places I never carry there. My quandary is what if someone visiting or new to town came into the mall through one of the unmarked entrances carrying concealed. What kind of repercussions might come to that person? He/she could legitimately say "there was no sign where I entered" even though there are signs at other entrances.

What do y'all think?

[The Wall]

Well! Assuming they got caught means they probably weren't concealed properly for one. But if someone brings it to their attention they can say, "I'm sorry! There was no signage where I entered, and now that you have informed me verbally I will be glad to leave and remove my handgun before coming back in." Then leave immediately. Don't hang around shooting the breeze or try to explain how you feel about the law. Just leave.

[AJSully421]

You would take the ride!!!

In reality, in most places, the cops would give you an opportunity to either leave it in the car, or vacate the property, depending on how the owner / manager wanted it handled. Only if you refused and started yelling about your rights would you get arrested or ticketed. Cops are not out to arrest good guys, they are looking for bad guys.

Now, in the 5 liberal cesspool cities in Texas... I would not expect much leniency.

Other than that, concealed means concealed.

[C-dub]

This is the big question and a grey area that has, if I'm not mistaken, so far been unanswered by any court rulings.

IMHO, as long as the signs are posted correctly, whether or not a person saw them or not, they violated them and could face the full penalty for doing so. Not everyone has the same opinion. AJSully is probably correct about what would happen. Cops are people too, and if they believe that someone was truly unaware of the presence of any 30.06 or .07 signage then they might give the opportunity to leave without further penalty.

[vjallen75]

These is a huge grey area when it comes to malls. And as C-Dub stated, this has not been tested in court.

IMHO, I don't have the correct wording because I am at work but from my knowledge TPS is very clear that all entrances and have to be posted for it to be a crime. If you walk into the mall and happen to walk into JC Penny (not the entrance to outside but actually inside the mall) and notice that there is a 30.06/07 sign as you exit (outside) you were not breaking any laws because their entrance (mall side) was not posted and you were not given effective consent. I would not like to be a case subject for courts for this to be proven right and I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.

[C-dub]

These is a huge grey area when it comes to malls. And as C-Dub stated, this has not been tested in court.

IMHO, I don't have the correct wording because I am at work but from my knowledge TPS is very clear that all entrances and have to be posted for it to be a crime.

This is only true for 30.07. Then the question/differentiation becomes the definition of an entrance to the mall versus an entrance to a satellite department store. The point then could be made that each entrance to the mall via a department store like that would also require a 30.07. I'm fairly sure that most malls that do post have posted have correctly posted each of their external entrances, but would doubt that they have also posted each of their internal entrances where one transitions from a store like Macy's, Sears, or Dillard's to the mall itself.

Legally, I think a mall could get away with one 30.06 sign posted where all COULD see it.

[vjallen75]

These is a huge grey area when it comes to malls. And as C-Dub stated, this has not been tested in court.

IMHO, I don't have the correct wording because I am at work but from my knowledge TPS is very clear that all entrances and have to be posted for it to be a crime.

This is only true for 30.07. Then the question/differentiation becomes the definition of an entrance to the mall versus an entrance to a satellite department store. The point then could be made that each entrance to the mall via a department store like that would also require a 30.07. I'm fairly sure that most malls that do post have posted have correctly posted each of their external entrances, but would doubt that they have also posted each of their internal entrances where one transitions from a store like Macy's, Sears, or Dillard's to the mall itself.

Legally, I think a mall could get away with one 30.06 sign posted where all COULD see it.

I meant I don't have the wording for the TPC that states it has to be on all entrances and exits. Sorry for the confusion. I know there are certain stores that do have a posted 30.07 sign in the two malls I go to but we don't shop at those places anyways. I have not see a 30.06 sign at the mall on any entrance.

Based off of the highlighted statement the only way all could see it if it is posted on ALL entrances correct? Someone will miss it if not. That person would have to prove that the sign was not there when they walked in the mall.

I could be wrong but this is what I have been told and my understanding of TPC.

[C-dub]

Based off of the highlighted statement the only way all could see it if it is posted on ALL entrances correct? Someone will miss it if not. That person would have to prove that the sign was not there when they walked in the mall.

I could be wrong but this is what I have been told and my understanding of TPC.

It is not required that a person see the sign. It is only required that it be there.

Here are the relevant parts of both 30.06 and 30.07 regarding signage.

30.06

(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

30.07

(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public at each entrance to the property.

A 30.06 sign doesn't even have to be at an entrance. It can be well inside the store/mall. For a mall, I'm thinking about any of the large central areas where things like Christmas trees or stages are located where everyone COULD see it.

[vjallen75]

A 30.06 sign doesn't even have to be at an entrance. It can be well inside to store/mall. For a mall, I'm thinking about any of the large central areas where things like Christmas trees or stages are located where everyone COULD see it.

Thanks for looking that up, I stand corrected. I was of the impression it had to be at all entrances. That would be a good place to put it. At the mall we frequent that is in the center of the mall.

[C-dub]

A 30.06 sign doesn't even have to be at an entrance. It can be well inside to store/mall. For a mall, I'm thinking about any of the large central areas where things like Christmas trees or stages are located where everyone COULD see it.

Thanks for looking that up, I stand corrected. I was of the impression it had to be at all entrances. That would be a good place to put it. At the mall we frequent that is in the center of the mall.

That's what it is, but I think it should be at every entrance like 30.07.

[rotor]

Someone will someday step up and be a test case here (by choice or not) or the legislature will change the laws. The other issue here is that (to my understanding) to be prosecuted a property owner who provided valid notice actually presses charges.

[crazy2medic]

I admit I did this, Me and my wife went to Ridgmar mall, we entered through the Sears store, no 30.06, I thought that's great and I knew they had a "code of conduct" posted in the food court that said no firearms, no knives etc. But that didn't apply so we walked around and for whatever reason I needed to run out to my truck, exited through the food court and there on the outside wall two big 30.06 and 30.07 signs, so I had to leave my .45 in the truck! They should have to post EVERY entrance or the signs don't have the force of law JMHO

[ScottDLS]

...
It is not required that a person see the sign. It is only required that it be there.

Here are the relevant parts of both 30.06 and 30.07 regarding signage.

30.06

(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.
...

If you didn't see it, you've got a pretty good argument that it wasn't "displayed in a conspicuous manner, clearly visible to the public".

To violate the 30.06 law requires you to enter and remain after 'receiving notice'. The notice has to be 'provided TO YOU' per the statute. And while a conspicuously displayed sign constitutes 'notice' in the statute, there's an argument as to whether it was 'provided to you' if it wasn't visible from where you entered. Or if you subsequently departed after noticing it.

So to OP question, I wouldn't be worried if I were in the situation that his friend was in. In my opinion he wasn't violating the law if he left after noticing the sign. And it would be unlikely to "take the ride" for a class C even if someone (in authority) noticed he was carrying.

I went to a restaurant the other day carrying concealed. I noticed a HUGE 30.07 sign as I walked in, so I figured I was OK. When I left, I noticed a 30.06 on the other wall that I hadn't seen coming in. You could argue I broke the law, because the 30.06 was arguably conspicuous. I didn't intend to break the law, and I won't go back there carrying, but I'm not going to go report myself to the local JP court for them to charge me...

[TaildraggerJ3]

Thanks guys, I really appreciate your insight into this somewhat "fuzzy" situation. I haven't heard of anyone being confronted at our Mall about carrying concealed. I have heard of people in the parking lot being accosted by thieves & other crooks. I hate that I have to walk from my truck to the mall & back unarmed, but it is what it is. I guess if someone tries something while I'm between the truck and the door, I'll ask them to wait until I run back to the truck & get my piece

I know it's "preaching to the choir" but I can't really understand WHY I can carry concealed or openly in the stores with outside doors but when I cross the threshold into the mall itself it I break the law. Guess there are a bunch of misinformed people in the world.

[bigtek]

If you're aware of valid 30.06 signs then you know what you're supposed to do. Someone who isn't aware of the signs has no quandry either.