Carrying in county courthouses

[grandpatim]

(3) on the premises of any government court or offices
utilized by the court, unless pursuant to written regulations or
written authorization of the court;

We were told in my CHL class that we could carry in the courthouse as long as we stay out of the courtroom or any offices that had anything to do with a court. He also said since all the courtrooms and court offices were on the 2nd floor we could carry legally on the first floor. The first floor has the county clerks office and tax assessors office. It also houses the county judges office. The sign they have up by the doors say that the County Commissioners of Terry County have ruled that the carrying of firearms in this building is illegal. Is this legal for us to carry on the 1st floor or does the fact that the courts are in this building make it illegal to carry any where in the building?

To me the law I have quoted above makes it illegal to carry in the building. And although the sign is not a 30.06 it is the same as verbally being told you cannot carry there. So is it legal or not?

Thanks,
Tim

[barres]

Premises are defined as a building or portion of a building, but who wants to be the test case.

Also a sign is a written notice and, therefore, must meet statutory requirements to be enforceable. Until someone makes a sign that talks, a sign cannot provide verbal notification.

[Thane]

I'd advise against carrying in that building. Odds are, they've got plainclothes officers walking about as well as uniformed officers. I'd not want to run the risk of being "made" and the resultant fuss.

Additionally, as Barres pointed out, the law defines "premises" as "a building or a portion of a building." If the locals have decided that the entire building is a courthouse, you'll have a bit of a sticky situation on your hands. You might technically be in the right, but a jury might not believe that. It seems to be quite the gray area, and not one into which I'd want to venture.

As for the sign being "verbal notice," well, that's nonsense. What the sign is doing is informing you of the local constabulatory's decision that the entire building is off-limits. The sign isn't the restrictive force here; it's only the messenger. (Similar to any sign outside a courtroom proper that declares that firearms are prohibited within. The firearms are prohibited not by the sign, but by the court which ordered the sign put up.)

(I hope I'm reading the law right; I'm definitely no lawyer)

[grandpatim]

I know a sign cannot talk and give verbal notice. I was talking about in theory. If you could get in my head you could see what I meant. It is a small town of 9,000 with total county population of 13,000. I am the supervisor of the EMS service and I know all the police officers and sheriffs deputies. There is a deputy that acts as a baliff for the court when it is in session. The sheriff's office used to be on the third floor but moved to another building several years ago so the only officers there are by chance other than the deputy. I don't want to push the issue either but since I know all of the LEO's in town I don't think they would push it anyways.

[RHZig]

This is why CHLs should be able to carry everywhere except a jail.

[AEA]

Hopefully in 2008!

[Popshot]

On a practical note, your ability to carry can be severely hindered as more and more county buildings that contain courtrooms have security screening upon entry into the building (metal detectors and x-ray machines).

[hi-power]

grandpatim,

In my town the court is also on the second floor of a two-story building. The police department has offices on the entire first floor and part of the second floor.

There are no signs on the doors leading into the building and I didn't ask whether or not it was legal to carry in there. (My interpretation is that I could not carry into the building, knowing there was a court located in the same building). ETA: The words "POLICE & COURTS BUILDING" appear on the front of the building.

Then I was given verbal notice:

The Sgt. running the program told us the first night: "We know there are a couple of people in here with CHL's and we support that, but you cannot carry in here because we have the court upstairs."

[TIN BENDER]

Don't do it !

Don't do it !

[Renegade]

When SB501 was passed, the wording of this law was also changed ever so slightly. This is what it used to say:

(3) in any government court or offices utilized by the court, unless
pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the court;

Thus, it seemed to me they wanted to tighten it up, and include the building, not just the offices.

[ELB]

As I understand the current law, whether "the locals decide" or the "commissioner's court has ruled" a building is off limits to CHL is legally irrelevant -- it's the state law that decides these things.

The one exception I see to this is that state law allows local governments can ban CHL holders from being armed at meetings of governmental entities, and apparently can use a 30.06 sign to do this -- but would seem to me that when meetings are NOT being held, the sign would have no effect.

I do get confused about the meaning of premises, as defined in 46.035 (f) (3), "building or portion of a building." The phrase "or portion of a building," as applied to 46.03 (a)(3) "any government court or offices
utilized by the court," implies to me that a single courtroom or court office in a building makes the building off-limits. I have searched this site for a discussion of this term specifically, but have not found one. (I get several hundred returns when I search on it, so the discussion may be there and I just haven't stumbled over it yet). If anyone can straighten me out on this one, or point to the appropriate discussion, I would appreciate it.

elb

[frankie_the_yankee]

I do get confused about the meaning of premises, as defined in 46.035 (f) (3), "building or portion of a building." The phrase "or portion of a building," as applied to 46.03 (a)(3) "any government court or offices
utilized by the court," implies to me that a single courtroom or court office in a building makes the building off-limits.

The way I read it, it means that it is permissable for local authorities to ban guns from the whole building OR just from a portion of the building.

The word "or" is the key here.

It is pretty plain to me. Leave the gun in the car.