Austin City Limits Festival

[Soap]

Just boycott the festival the traffic and drunk drivers have already ruined it

When people tell me to boycott something because it's anti gun, I find it really hard to do so. As I have a wife and a child. I try to do most shopping online anyways.

[rotor]

Wholly understand. That's why I think that, even though it would have no effect this year, the matter should be taken to the Attorney General.

And the fine if there is one would be paid by Austin and not the shows promoter. If things were filed now that could be a very hefty fine even if the show was only 6 days depending upon what the AG felt the start of the fine day was. Might be a years worth of fines.

[AustinNative04]

I just talked to someone who has been going for years. He carries every time he goes. He said they just check bags and things. He also said there is no offcial signs reguarding permit carry. All he has seen is "weapons are prohibited". The website doesn't reference law either. It sounds more like a request.

FWIW, I got wanded last year on my way in, but perhaps I'm a bit more a shifty-looking character. Also FWIW, I also had plenty of time to observe security doing the wanding, and I could have returned to my car before going through security if needed. As stated, I've also never seen any firearms-specific signage.

[treadlightly]

Unless Zilker Park is on the grounds of a school or educational institution, or within 1,000 feet of a location designated by the Texas Department of Criminal Justice as a place of execution

There's Austin's answer, a neck-stretching!

[Soap]

I just talked to someone who has been going for years. He carries every time he goes. He said they just check bags and things. He also said there is no offcial signs reguarding permit carry. All he has seen is "weapons are prohibited". The website doesn't reference law either. It sounds more like a request.

FWIW, I got wanded last year on my way in, but perhaps I'm a bit more a shifty-looking character. Also FWIW, I also had plenty of time to observe security doing the wanding, and I could have returned to my car before going through security if needed. As stated, I've also never seen any firearms-specific signage.

He hasn't been in awhile. Maybe 3 years ago. What does FWIW mean? I didn't plan on carrying inside anyway. My wife told me I couldn't carry inside and it made me wonder since it's a public park.

[Flightmare]

I just talked to someone who has been going for years. He carries every time he goes. He said they just check bags and things. He also said there is no offcial signs reguarding permit carry. All he has seen is "weapons are prohibited". The website doesn't reference law either. It sounds more like a request.

FWIW, I got wanded last year on my way in, but perhaps I'm a bit more a shifty-looking character. Also FWIW, I also had plenty of time to observe security doing the wanding, and I could have returned to my car before going through security if needed. As stated, I've also never seen any firearms-specific signage.

He hasn't been in awhile. Maybe 3 years ago. What does FWIW mean? I didn't plan on carrying inside anyway. My wife told me I couldn't carry inside and it made me wonder since it's a public park.

FWIW = For what it's worth

[Skiprr]

Wholly understand. That's why I think that, even though it would have no effect this year, the matter should be taken to the Attorney General.

And the fine if there is one would be paid by Austin and not the shows promoter. If things were filed now that could be a very hefty fine even if the show was only 6 days depending upon what the AG felt the start of the fine day was. Might be a years worth of fines.

Needs to be reported, regardless. This festival--named for the city of Austin; that contributes millions of dollars to the city in an apparent mutual arrangement; and that takes place only over two, three-day weekends each year--is evidently erecting fences around a municipally owned public park and wanding--and refusing--people to enter who have valid Texas LTCs.

I understand AustinNative04's position, but I cannot understand his justification/rationalization under the law.

Nothing, IMHO, about the Austin City Limits Festival prohibiting licensed handgun carry is legal from any facts I've seen.

I wasn't the one who brought up ATG opinion KP-108, but let me remind you how Ken Paxton summed it:

The plain language of subsections 30.06(e) and 30.07(e) make an exception if the property on which the license holder carries a gun "is owned or leased by a governmental entity." These statutes make no exception to that exception for property owned by a governmental entity but leased to a private entity, and to conclude that carrying a handgun on such property is prohibited would therefore require reading language into the statute beyond what the Legislature included.

I don't live in Austin. Ain't ever going to ACLF. No dog in this local hunt.

But that the "private entity" temporarily on government-owned property has control...well, that argument ain't ever gonna fly.

A local government cannot be allowed to flout Texas's licensed carry laws, or any state law, simply because it disagrees with the law or doesn't feel like honoring it. I will vigilantly protect and preserve the Second Amendment rights of Texans.

Someone who does live in Austin should pick this up and get the Attorney General involved. Paxton has sued Waller County over something way more marginal than this. This one seems pretty outright blatant.

[AJSully421]

Except for that pesky line that states you can't exclude an LTC Holder on criminal trespass simply for having a weapon.

I think I’m following your point—but correct me if I’m missing it. I recognize that this is park land, and generally speaking, a government entity couldn't exclude an LTC from a park solely for having a lawful firearm.

But, in this situation, Zilker Park is temporarily under the control of a private entity for purposes of the festival. Remember, access is controlled with fences and gates. I believe the LTC would be excluded for violating the terms and conditions of the license--terms set by the private entity, not the City.

So, here is where this gets to be fun.... if the private event promoter decides that you have "violated the terms of your contract / ticket", specifically for carrying a handgun with a license in a public park... who is going to come and throw you out?

Private security in Texas cannot lay a finger on you, they can only observe and report... so they cannot toss you and they cannot arrest you. If they call the real cops, they cannot use 30.05 to remove you because of 30.05(f) and they cannot use 30.06 because the event is occurring in a city owned park. So, the cops cannot touch you unless you are acting crazy, swearing, or being abusive.

No one can legally touch you if they find that you have a licensed handgun.

What will happen next is they will invite some high school marching band to play and try to call the whole thing a "School sponsored event" and restrict carry that way.

All the more reason that every off-limits place needs to be exempted for LTCers.

[remanifest]

So, here is where this gets to be fun.... if the private event promoter decides that you have "violated the terms of your contract / ticket", specifically for carrying a handgun with a license in a public park... who is going to come and throw you out?

Private security in Texas cannot lay a finger on you, they can only observe and report... so they cannot toss you and they cannot arrest you. If they call the real cops, they cannot use 30.05 to remove you because of 30.05(f) and they cannot use 30.06 because the event is occurring in a city owned park. So, the cops cannot touch you unless you are acting crazy, swearing, or being abusive.

No one can legally touch you if they find that you have a licensed handgun.

What will happen next is they will invite some high school marching band to play and try to call the whole thing a "School sponsored event" and restrict carry that way.

All the more reason that every off-limits place needs to be exempted for LTCers.

I can concur with that. I got into an a minor debate with a friend regarding campus carry. The argument was that it was less safe because more guns were on campus. Simple retort was that more guns=more safety, stats show violent crimes occur overwhelmingly in gun-free zones, and that LTCers contributed to less than 1/4 of 1% of all crimes in Texas last year, and that bad guys don't bring guns to places where there's a real good chance that they could be gunned down quickly by a well-prepared citizen, nullifying their claim to fame. We're not dealing with risk-takers in these kinds of attacks. We're dealing with people who do terrible things for a multitude of other motives, the least of which is the respect of the lives of fellow human beings. We are the people who stand ready to defend what is ours, and our loved ones from harm, so long as we are able.

It's a no-brainer to let the people who are statistically proven to be the safest, most law-abiding people in society carry weapons. These people are exactly the kind of people any sane person would want to be there if they were ever caught in such an unfortunate position.

...
I wasn't the one who brought up ATG opinion KP-108, but let me remind you how Ken Paxton summed it:

The plain language of subsections 30.06(e) and 30.07(e) make an exception if the property on which the license holder carries a gun "is owned or leased by a governmental entity." These statutes make no exception to that exception for property owned by a governmental entity but leased to a private entity, and to conclude that carrying a handgun on such property is prohibited would therefore require reading language into the statute beyond what the Legislature included.

...

But you need to quit using the "private entity" argument. Ain't never gonna fly.

Someone who does live in Austin should pick this up and get the Attorney General involved. Paxton has sued Waller County over something way more marginal than this. This one seems pretty outright blatant.

Couldn't agree more. I live in Austin, and I have a family. It is a small challenge that I have had to tell my family that I an generally uncomfortable being in places that disallow carry. This list includes some grocery stores that we would sometimes go to, and now will include ACL and other festivals that have these ridiculous rules attached. I would love to see the AG weigh-in on this and put it to bed. How do we get that going?

All the more reason that every off-limits place needs to be exempted for LTCers.

I completely agree!

[Soap]

So I will record my way in. If I see any signs I should report them?

[AJSully421]

So I will record my way in. If I see any signs I should report them?

I'd say no, it would be a private entity posting and the OAG will take 6 months to decide to do nothing about it. This will delay cases of actual wrongdoing by other cities for even longer than the current sub-snail pace.

[ScottDLS]

Except for that pesky line that states you can't exclude an LTC Holder on criminal trespass simply for having a weapon.

I think I’m following your point—but correct me if I’m missing it. I recognize that this is park land, and generally speaking, a government entity couldn't exclude an LTC from a park solely for having a lawful firearm.

But, in this situation, Zilker Park is temporarily under the control of a private entity for purposes of the festival. Remember, access is controlled with fences and gates. I believe the LTC would be excluded for violating the terms and conditions of the license--terms set by the private entity, not the City.

So, here is where this gets to be fun.... if the private event promoter decides that you have "violated the terms of your contract / ticket", specifically for carrying a handgun with a license in a public park... who is going to come and throw you out?



Private security in Texas cannot lay a finger on you, they can only observe and report... so they cannot toss you and they cannot arrest you. If they call the real cops, they cannot use 30.05 to remove you because of 30.05(f) and they cannot use 30.06 because the event is occurring in a city owned park. So, the cops cannot touch you unless you are acting crazy, swearing, or being abusive.

No one can legally touch you if they find that you have a licensed handgun.

What will happen next is they will invite some high school marching band to play and try to call the whole thing a "School sponsored event" and restrict carry that way.

All the more reason that every off-limits place needs to be exempted for LTCers.

I think they will take the approach like Cowboys Stadium did for me (at a NON-SCHOOL, NON-PROFESSIONAL, SPORTING EVENT). They will have private security wanding as you present your ticket and will bar your entry. Unless you are going to force your way past the entry and dare them to do something about it, you'll have no choice but to put the gun away or go home.

[TexasTornado]

Except for that pesky line that states you can't exclude an LTC Holder on criminal trespass simply for having a weapon.

I think I’m following your point—but correct me if I’m missing it. I recognize that this is park land, and generally speaking, a government entity couldn't exclude an LTC from a park solely for having a lawful firearm.

But, in this situation, Zilker Park is temporarily under the control of a private entity for purposes of the festival. Remember, access is controlled with fences and gates. I believe the LTC would be excluded for violating the terms and conditions of the license--terms set by the private entity, not the City.

So, here is where this gets to be fun.... if the private event promoter decides that you have "violated the terms of your contract / ticket", specifically for carrying a handgun with a license in a public park... who is going to come and throw you out?



Private security in Texas cannot lay a finger on you, they can only observe and report... so they cannot toss you and they cannot arrest you. If they call the real cops, they cannot use 30.05 to remove you because of 30.05(f) and they cannot use 30.06 because the event is occurring in a city owned park. So, the cops cannot touch you unless you are acting crazy, swearing, or being abusive.

No one can legally touch you if they find that you have a licensed handgun.

What will happen next is they will invite some high school marching band to play and try to call the whole thing a "School sponsored event" and restrict carry that way.

All the more reason that every off-limits place needs to be exempted for LTCers.

I think they will take the approach like Cowboys Stadium did for me (at a NON-SCHOOL, NON-PROFESSIONAL, SPORTING EVENT). They will have private security wanding as you present your ticket and will bar your entry. Unless you are going to force your way past the entry and dare them to do something about it, you'll have no choice but to put the gun away or go home.

I wonder what would happen if we called the police (non emergency line of course) and explained that we were going to continue into the building...as there are no laws being broken, would they support us?

[bblhd672]

I wonder what would happen if we called the police (non emergency line of course) and explained that we were going to continue into the building...as there are no laws being broken, would they support us?

I believe that you would be arrested for trespassing. The Austin district attorney and media would love to prosecute and persecute LTC's who are acting in an unlawful manner - whether "legally" you are or are not. It only matters what those entities say on the evening news, and the LTC community would get a black eye in the process.

Better tactic would be to let the legislature do their work toward removing the restrictions which is part of the 2017 plan. Creating a scene now may disrupt those plans.

[ScottDLS]

I wonder what would happen if we called the police (non emergency line of course) and explained that we were going to continue into the building...as there are no laws being broken, would they support us?

I believe that you would be arrested for trespassing. The Austin district attorney and media would love to prosecute and persecute LTC's who are acting in an unlawful manner - whether "legally" you are or are not. It only matters what those entities say on the evening news, and the LTC community would get a black eye in the process.

Better tactic would be to let the legislature do their work toward removing the restrictions which is part of the 2017 plan. Creating a scene now may disrupt those plans.

I think it's more likely you would get arrested for disorderly conduct. Trespassing is clearly statutorily not applicable. It would be like getting arrested for driving 40 in a 45 zone...They'd more likely make up something like reckless driving than try to get you for speeding.