30.06 and 30.07 signs at gas stations

[thetexan]

Perhaps the sign should read " ...past this point on this property..."

tex

[Archery1]

Please explain to me...

If a valid 30.06 sign means the entire property is off limits. Then a 30.06 sign in fornt of City Council chambers during a meeting, means the tax collector's office is also off limits because it is on the same property as City council chambers. Correct?

No.

Unfortunately the legislature mandates use of 30.06 sign even on for places it is not OK. This creates confusion. In your specific case the TC office is OK since it is not 46.03 or 46.035 as listed in 30.06.

There is also effective consent. The gas station can post 30.06 and then tell folks CC/OC is OK as long as you do not come in the building.

The argument that some are making is that because of the word "property" in the .06/.07 language, a valid posted sign renders the entire property off limits regardless of where the sign is posted on the property. In this light, I am trying to reconcile this logic with other situations.

In the case of City Council and a Tax Collectors office (multipurpose building), I think most would agree that that a .06 sign at the entrance of City Council chambers would not render the entire “property” off limits and.06 would only pertain/apply to the City Council chambers. City Council chambers are not statutorily off limits. City Council can choose to allow CC or not during meeting s that are subject to “Open Meeting.” The code does not require them to post, it only requires them to post if they want to ban CC during that meeting.

In the case of a private school, I think most would agree that they would need to post .06 at the parking lot entrances if they wanted to stop CC in the parking lot. If not post at the entrances, then CC would be ok in the parking lot.

In the case of public universities (in August), will no longer be statutorily off limits and they will need to post .06 in the areas they want to designate as off limits, but the .06 sign will not render the entire property off limits. It only renders the areas posted as off limits.

Given the scenarios above, why would posting .06/.07 on the front door of a gas station, automatically extend to the gas pumps? It does not seem to fit/reconcile with the other scenarios.

I would agree that in theory, property and premises have two different meanings, but I would submit that the practical application of .06/07 seems to ignore this difference. I would also submit that the legislative intent, is not for .06/.07 to render the entire property off limits as supported by campus carry legislation and its application of .06… regardless of the word “property.”

It does no fit because public property is not private. We are part owners of public property, so restricting its use by us is legislated differently.

[PhilBob]

Other than the doors providing access to the building do gas stations truly have a defined "entrance to the property"? Sure, thinking of a couple of driveways to gain access to the pumps off the street could be "entrances", but most gas stations in my community also have access from adjacent businesses or strip centers, plus anyone can access the grounds at any point from the sidewalks that front the gas station to go into the store.

[pt145ss]

It does no fit because public property is not private. We are part owners of public property, so restricting its use by us is legislated differently.

Where in .06/.07 does it distinguish a difference in public vs private? 46.035 does not use the term property anywhere and .06/07 uses the word property but does not carve out public vs. private. So it would be logical to assume that .06/.07 signs have the same meaning regardless of being posted on private or public property. Yet some are asserting that when on private property .06/.07 covers the entire property but when posted on public property it only covers the specific area being posted.

Again, I go back to the private school scenario. Private schools are not public property. They premises part of the school is statutorily off limits. I think most would agree that posting a .06/07 at the entrance of the private school building would be redundant and unnecessary because it is already off limits. I also think that most would agree that posting at the entrance to the build does not render the parking lot and driveway off limits. A private school, would need to post signs at the entrance to the driveways if they wanted to stop carry in the parking lot.

Would you agree with that? And if so, would that not mean that location of signs are important in indicating what areas of the property are off limits?

Back to the OP. If we apply this same logic to a gas station, a sign posted at the entrance to the store would indicate that the store itself is off limits but the pumps are OK. Furthermore, if the owners wanted to stop carry at the pumps they would need to post signs at each driveway or have sign at/near the pumps.

[Soccerdad1995]

Other than the doors providing access to the building do gas stations truly have a defined "entrance to the property"? Sure, thinking of a couple of driveways to gain access to the pumps off the street could be "entrances", but most gas stations in my community also have access from adjacent businesses or strip centers, plus anyone can access the grounds at any point from the sidewalks that front the gas station to go into the store.

IANAL, but I would interpret this to mean that the owner would need to post entrances all along the sides of the parking lot where a person could reasonably walk onto the lot. This is based on the requirement in 30.07 to post signs at each entrance. Under 30.06, as long as signs are conspicuously posted, the owner would be covered. So if in doubt, it is safer to OC.

[thetexan]

It does no fit because public property is not private. We are part owners of public property, so restricting its use by us is legislated differently.

Where in .06/.07 does it distinguish a difference in public vs private? 46.035 does not use the term property anywhere and .06/07 uses the word property but does not carve out public vs. private. So it would be logical to assume that .06/.07 signs have the same meaning regardless of being posted on private or public property. Yet some are asserting that when on private property .06/.07 covers the entire property but when posted on public property it only covers the specific area being posted.

Again, I go back to the private school scenario. Private schools are not public property. They premises part of the school is statutorily off limits. I think most would agree that posting a .06/07 at the entrance of the private school building would be redundant and unnecessary because it is already off limits. I also think that most would agree that posting at the entrance to the build does not render the parking lot and driveway off limits. A private school, would need to post signs at the entrance to the driveways if they wanted to stop carry in the parking lot.

Would you agree with that? And if so, would that not mean that location of signs are important in indicating what areas of the property are off limits?

Back to the OP. If we apply this same logic to a gas station, a sign posted at the entrance to the store would indicate that the store itself is off limits but the pumps are OK. Furthermore, if the owners wanted to stop carry at the pumps they would need to post signs at each driveway or have sign at/near the pumps.

Not at all. Public property is mostly covered in statute. Most public property is owned by governmental entities and they are prohibited from posting by statute.


To assert that location of the sign gives additional meaning or interpretation to the message on this particular sign is not supported in the statute. This is because of the general wording on the sign. If it read, in part, "...beyond this point..." Or something similar then location would be an integral part of its interpretation.

As it stands now everything you attribute to the "logical" meaning of the sign being based on placement is entirely dependent on your interpretation of what you believe or what "logically" the owner's intentions are regarding what he is trying to accomplish; something you may guess at but cannot possibly factually know.

For all you know HE DOES want to prohibit guns on his entire property, and as far as 30.06 requirements, posting the 30.06 conspicuously and clearly visible to the public at the air pumps accomplishes the requirements of the statute for notification.

tex

[Archery1]

It does no fit because public property is not private. We are part owners of public property, so restricting its use by us is legislated differently.

Where in .06/.07 does it distinguish a difference in public vs private? 46.035 does not use the term property anywhere and .06/07 uses the word property but does not carve out public vs. private. So it would be logical to assume that .06/.07 signs have the same meaning regardless of being posted on private or public property. Yet some are asserting that when on private property .06/.07 covers the entire property but when posted on public property it only covers the specific area being posted.

Here: (e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.

The property cannot be posted, but qualifying premises can. So, the sign is not applicable to the property, but it is applicable to the courtroom.

[thetexan]

By the way, most property considered public is actually private. All of these are private property.

The Exxon world headquarters and it parking lots and grounds.

The gas station on the corner.

The bank

Etc

Just because you as the public can go on their property doesn't make it public property. You are there as a personal guest of the owner with his effective consent which he may give or retract at his direction and pleasure.

tex

[K5GU]

Technically speaking, I don't see how a business in a large center could comply with the 30.07(B)(iii) sign requirements that says, "...is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public at each entrance to the property. Some of the gasoline stations where I go share the space with adjacent businesses. How would you determine whose property you're on to get to the gas pump? Where would "each entrance" be located? Just a thought.

[WildBill]

By the way, most property considered public is actually private. All of these are private property.

The Exxon world headquarters and it parking lots and grounds.

The gas station on the corner.

The bank

Etc

Just because you as the public can go on their property doesn't make it public property. You are there as a personal guest of the owner with his effective consent which he may give or retract at his direction and pleasure.

tex

I still remember a quote that a game warden told the instructors in a hunter safety class about posting no trespassing sign.

If you don't own the property then it belongs to someone else.

[pt145ss]

It does no fit because public property is not private. We are part owners of public property, so restricting its use by us is legislated differently.

Where in .06/.07 does it distinguish a difference in public vs private? 46.035 does not use the term property anywhere and .06/07 uses the word property but does not carve out public vs. private. So it would be logical to assume that .06/.07 signs have the same meaning regardless of being posted on private or public property. Yet some are asserting that when on private property .06/.07 covers the entire property but when posted on public property it only covers the specific area being posted.

Again, I go back to the private school scenario. Private schools are not public property. They premises part of the school is statutorily off limits. I think most would agree that posting a .06/07 at the entrance of the private school building would be redundant and unnecessary because it is already off limits. I also think that most would agree that posting at the entrance to the build does not render the parking lot and driveway off limits. A private school, would need to post signs at the entrance to the driveways if they wanted to stop carry in the parking lot.

Would you agree with that? And if so, would that not mean that location of signs are important in indicating what areas of the property are off limits?

Back to the OP. If we apply this same logic to a gas station, a sign posted at the entrance to the store would indicate that the store itself is off limits but the pumps are OK. Furthermore, if the owners wanted to stop carry at the pumps they would need to post signs at each driveway or have sign at/near the pumps.

Not at all. Public property is mostly covered in statute. Most public property is owned by governmental entities and they are prohibited from posting by statute.


To assert that location of the sign gives additional meaning or interpretation to the message on this particular sign is not supported in the statute. This is because of the general wording on the sign. If it read, in part, "...beyond this point..." Or something similar then location would be an integral part of its interpretation.

As it stands now everything you attribute to the "logical" meaning of the sign being based on placement is entirely dependent on your interpretation of what you believe or what "logically" the owner's intentions are regarding what he is trying to accomplish; something you may guess at but cannot possibly factually know.

For all you know HE DOES want to prohibit guns on his entire property, and as far as 30.06 requirements, posting the 30.06 conspicuously and clearly visible to the public at the air pumps accomplishes the requirements of the statute for notification.

tex

This is good.

If your kids went to private school, and that school posted .06/.07 on the building entrance. Would you still carry in the parking lot when dropping them off?

[ScottDLS]

I would only carry concealed in my car if the parking lot was posted, because then I wouldn't be violating 30.06, since I would not be carrying under the authority of my LTC.

[pt145ss]

This is all very very interesting to me. Thank you for putting up with me while I threw stuff against the wall to see what would stick.

With that said, most gas stations have pay at the pump, right? Which means you might not ever go inside the store. Because .06 only has to be in a conspicuous place, for the sake of argument let’s say it is at the cash register. You pull up to the pumps, get out with your CC, and start pumping. The LEO at the pump next to takes notice of your CC (for whatever reason… your shirt flies up in the wind etc.). Because the LEO gets free donuts every morning at this station, he knows its posted .06.

To the letter of .06, the station has given effective notice by posting in a conspicuous location and the entire property is off limits. Are you in violation of the law? Do you have a defense to prosecution?

[pt145ss]

I would only carry concealed in my car if the parking lot was posted, because then I wouldn't be violating 30.06, since I would not be carrying under the authority of my LTC.

Does carry via MPA exempt you from the federal gun free zone stuff? Just curious.

[ScottDLS]

I would only carry concealed in my car if the parking lot was posted, because then I wouldn't be violating 30.06, since I would not be carrying under the authority of my LTC.

Does carry via MPA exempt you from the federal gun free zone stuff? Just curious.

Technically no, but your LTC does even if not carrying under its authority for state law puposes