Conceald Carry at a gun show - legal question

[TVGuy]

So, yesterday I was talking to a FFL and two LEOs. All three agreed it was against the law to carry at a gun show and it must be posted/enforced by the show operator per BAFTE rules/regs. I disagreed, but had no "ammo" to back up my argument other than the illegality of posting government owned property, where many gun shows are held.

Can anyone help me bolster my argument?

Thanks in advance.

[Keith B]

Nope, not illegal to carry a loaded weapon at a gun show per BATFE rules. Totally bogus info.

[TVGuy]

Nope, not illegal to carry a loaded weapon at a gun show per BATFE rules. Totally bogus info.

I agree and stated that, but I sure wish I had something I could email these guys.

[fasteddie]

I would rather like them to show the BATFE rules that say you can't carry.

[Keith B]

I would rather like them to show the BATFE rules that say you can't carry.

It is very hard to prove that something doesn't exist. Tell them to show you where it DOES say that.

[fickman]

There are not BATFE rules about this. However, a 30.06 and 30.07 properly posted at a gun show on private property is definitely enforceable.

The debate arises because so many are hosted at city-owned facilities and the law specifically says that legal carry cannot be prohibited.

I think it's valuable to make a distinction between a gun you're taking for the purpose of the show (to sell, to look for accessories, to show to a gunsmith, etc.) and your concealed carry weapon that you are carrying for personal protection.

Here are the key considerations from my viewpoint:
- Gun shows often have LEOs working the door to check and secure guns being brought in. They usually believe that the gun show is properly posted and that concealed carry is illegal. If detected, you are likely to be arrested and will get to hire an attorney to help prove that you were right all along.
- Gun show owners have definitely been told by their attorneys that the 30.06 signs are enforceable and legal, and that their lease makes them the controlling entity of the property, making the city-owned clause invalid. I've gone back and forth with more than one on this. They are confident they're right.

That said, some people do choose to carry concealed beyond the signs.
- Unholstering your CCW (personal defense) gun in public when not being used defensively could get you in a lot of trouble. Before January 1, it could have constituted intentional failure to conceal. Now it could be viewed as some sort of provocation. Long story short - your personal defense firearm should remain dedicated to that purpose. If you need to shop with it (sell it, look for accessories, show it to a gunsmith), you should carry a different firearm that will remain concealed.

I've been at a gun show when there was a negligent discharge. Thankfully nobody was hurt, but it was a tense couple of seconds. It turned out to be a dealer - he wasn't arrested, but his booth was packed up and he was shown the door within 15 minutes.

The gun show operators are worried about insurance and are being pragmatic. They do have NDs form time to time, and they're terrified of people taking their CCW (personal defense) firearms out of the holster for gun show purposes. I get it, but they're wrong. But many CHLers are wrong, too, for mixing the purposes of their firearms at the gun show.

I've chosen to quit going until they stop posting the signs.

[fickman]

I am guilty of skimming your post. You're already aware of the city property issue. Oh well, I'll leave my post for posterity's sake.

[TVGuy]

I am guilty of skimming your post. You're already aware of the city property issue. Oh well, I'll leave my post for posterity's sake.

I appreciate your input.

[Solaris]

So, yesterday I was talking to a FFL and two LEOs. All three agreed it was against the law to carry at a gun show and it must be posted/enforced by the show operator per BAFTE rules/regs. I disagreed, but had no "ammo" to back up my argument other than the illegality of posting government owned property, where many gun shows are held.

Can anyone help me bolster my argument?

Thanks in advance.

There are no BATFE rules/regs governing this.

30.06/30.07 is not really enforceable at a gun show.

1) Most patrons (95% typically) are not even CHL holders, so it cannot be enforced on them. That should be obvious. So they can carry away. And they do, I see lots of folks carrying guns at gun shows, and since Texas does not differentiate loaded vs unloaded, no laws are broken.

2) CHL holders who declare their firearm and get it back, have gotten "effective consent", so they are legally carrying also. And as CHL law also does not differentiate loaded vs unloaded, they are free to do either.

What can happen is you can be kicked out, but the act of carrying is not illegal. In fact, that is the whole purpose of a gun show, to carry guns in or out.

eta
I noticed at Market Hall they had 30.07 signs, but they were covered up.I came in/out the South Door.30.06 signs were still there, and I declared my gun so I was GTG.

[lfinsr]

It is very hard to prove that something doesn't exist. Tell them to show you where it DOES say that.

Everything is legal unless they pass a law otherwise. The onus is on them, have them show you the regulations against it.

[nightmare69]

So, yesterday I was talking to a FFL and two LEOs. All three agreed it was against the law to carry at a gun show and it must be posted/enforced by the show operator per BAFTE rules/regs. I disagreed, but had no "ammo" to back up my argument other than the illegality of posting government owned property, where many gun shows are held.

Can anyone help me bolster my argument?

Thanks in advance.

There are no BATFE rules/regs governing this.

30.06/30.07 is not really enforceable at a gun show.

1) Most patrons (95% typically) are not even CHL holders, so it cannot be enforced on them. That should be obvious. So they can carry away. And they do, I see lots of folks carrying guns at gun shows, and since Texas does not differentiate loaded vs unloaded, no laws are broken.

2) CHL holders who declare their firearm and get it back, have gotten "effective consent", so they are legally carrying also. And as CHL law also does not differentiate loaded vs unloaded, they are free to do either.

What can happen is you can be kicked out, but the act of carrying is not illegal. In fact, that is the whole purpose of a gun show, to carry guns in or out.

eta
I noticed at Market Hall they had 30.07 signs, but they were covered up.I came in/out the South Door.30.06 signs were still there, and I declared my gun so I was GTG.

1. If a non license holder is carrying a loaded handgun consealed or open anywhere other than a gun range then they have committed a crime(UCW).

2. If you declare your firearm because you may want to sell, trade, or fit for a holster then it is usually checked at the door and secured by a zip tie to prevent a discharge. If you decide to carry your firearm then you keep it holstered. People get complacent around "their people" and I've seen CHL holders un holster their loaded firearm to fit with a holster or just to show others. Do not do this.

I have worked the door and the floor of our local gun show in uniform as an extra job.

[Solaris]

1. If a non license holder is carrying a loaded handgun consealed or open anywhere other than a gun range then they have committed a crime(UCW).

1)Not even close to correct. Texas does not distinguish between loaded or unloaded. If it is legal to carry unloaded, it is legal to carry loaded. If if it is legal to carry concealed, it is legal to carry open (MPA being the only exception I know of). There are also a host of exemptions to UCW in Case Law and in 46.15. For example, a loaded/unloaded concealed/open handgun is legal in your home, your car (cept MPA), hunting, fishing, to/from these places, traveling, etc. I can name many places it is legal beyond 'anywhere other than a gun range".

[nightmare69]

1. If a non license holder is carrying a loaded handgun consealed or open anywhere other than a gun range then they have committed a crime(UCW).

1)Not even close to correct. Texas does not distinguish between loaded or unloaded. If it is legal to carry unloaded, it is legal to carry loaded. There are also a host of exemptions to UCW in Case Law and in 46.15. For example, a loaded handgun is legal in your home, your car, hunting, fishing, to/from these places, traveling, etc. I can name many places it is legal beyond 'anywhere other than a gun range".

I gave one example, most know you can carry at home or your car. If you are not a LTC holder then you better not be carrying a loaded firearm at a gun show. You may get away with a unloaded firearm even though Texas law does not specify between the two, but loaded you will take a ride.

[Solaris]

I gave one example, most know you can carry at home or your car. If you are not a LTC holder then you better not be carrying a loaded firearm at a gun show. You may get away with a unloaded firearm even though Texas law does not specify between the two, but loaded you will take a ride.

Tthe context of my post was "30.06/30.07 is not really enforceable at a gun show." And I think everyone agrees on that wrt to non licensees.

[nightmare69]

I gave one example, most know you can carry at home or your car. If you are not a LTC holder then you better not be carrying a loaded firearm at a gun show. You may get away with a unloaded firearm even though Texas law does not specify between the two, but loaded you will take a ride.

Tthe context of my post was "30.06/30.07 is not really enforceable at a gun show." And I think everyone agrees on that wrt to non licensees.

If it's on city owned property then it's not. I had to inform Lone Star Gun Shows of this as they host our gun show on city owned property. That was 2yrs ago and I haven't seen a 30.06 since.