Addison Oktoberfest - Improper posting

[ELB]

I just wrote a letter to Slade Strickland, Director of Addison Parks and Rec, based on the template at the link above. ....

[RoyGBiv]

I'm confused.

This event was posted with 30.05 signs. I would have walked up to security and let them wand me. If they asked any questions or wanted to see my gun, i would have requested they bring an officer over, much like the State Fair a few years ago.

As someone already pointed out, a CHL excepts you from 30.05.

If they did not post 30.06 then they did not violate the new law.
If they did not inform you explicitly that your CHL was unwelcome, they did not violate the new law.

What am I missing?

The Alliance Air Show had a giant sign (and a bunch of smaller signs) that said "No Firearms". They do not apply to me when carrying my CHL.

[jrene]

What you are missing is (1) the signs are illegal because they purport to ban ALL firearms carriers, even those who hold a CHL, (2) the chilling effect this has on people (like me) who are going to this event with their families and "don't want trouble," i.e., the hassle of dealing with all of this, and undoubtedly the security personnel have no clue, meaning cops will show up and now you are spectacle, and (3) we need to stand up to these kinds of things and eliminate them.

Even though the signs are illegal doesn't mean we all want to get into a big mess with cops and security and all that stuff. Most people will just put their guns away because they don't want the hassle, meaning next year the same stuff will happen. We of all people need to use the legal process now given to us via 411.209, not get into a mess at the event itself.

[3dfxMM]

I am with Roy on this one. I do not clearly see what is illegal about the signs they posted. Now, if they had posted 30.06 signs that would be different. Can someone please explain?

[jrene]

Does anyone believe that signs which say NO FIREARMS ALLOWED with nothing else are legal under the new law? And does anyone believe that CHL holders will be given the red carpet once they get wanded and have to deal with security and law enforcement? And finally does anyone believe that most CHL holders will say damn the torpedoes and plow ahead into a security line with that sign being posted, or go back to their cars and disarm themselves just to avoid the near certain hassle they will encounter?

I know you are right - technically those signs don't fit nicely into the new statute because they don't mention CHLs or 30.06, but I believe an unqualified NO FIREARMS ALLOWED sign on local government property are not legal. They don't exclude CHL holders. Just my view.

[Taypo]

I wish more places would handle security like the State Fair.

If you've got a CHL, go to talk to the cop. If not, you're getting wanded.

Seems to work well for them.

[RoyGBiv]

Does anyone believe that signs which say NO FIREARMS ALLOWED with nothing else are legal under the new law? And does anyone believe that CHL holders will be given the red carpet once they get wanded and have to deal with security and law enforcement? And finally does anyone believe that most CHL holders will say darn the torpedoes and plow ahead into a security line with that sign being posted, or go back to their cars and disarm themselves just to avoid the near certain hassle they will encounter?

I know you are right - technically those signs don't fit nicely into the new statute because they don't mention CHLs or 30.06, but I believe an unqualified NO FIREARMS ALLOWED sign on local government property are not legal. They don't exclude CHL holders. Just my view.

Not trying to pick a fight here.... Please take this as trying to be constructive.

Next time you are faced with a similar situation, make the extra trip without the family or send the family ahead of you and make the time to go through the process and see what actually happens. Be prepared, know the law, be certain you're in the right. Then work the process. Smile, be friendly, try not to feel like you are doing something bad/illegal.... that'll get you extra scrutiny...

I would very much like to hear from someone that was stopped at this event when they got wanded. What happened?

I agree with the "chilling effect", but the new law is about posting 30.06/.07 signs where not allowed. 30.05 signs are good to go in that venue. I am not dissuaded by the "Unlicensed Possession" signs at the grocery store. But I definitely have been dissuaded from carrying to a concert at the American Airlines Center (which is not a prohibited event and it's on City property), so I do know how you feel.

Welcome to the forum...

[jrene]

All good RoyGBiv. Good healthy debate.

I am dealing more with the practicalities of what those signs do than necessarily their technical legal effect. The practicality is most people can't do advance work on these kinds of things. We go to an event expecting that the law will be followed and shouldn't have to deal with this at all. 2 of my family members are CHL holders and it stopped them dead in their tracks, no way they were going to get wanded and be made a spectacle. That's just human nature. Addison should not be allowed to get away with that. I believe a good case can be made that 411.209 is violated via the spirit of the law (maybe not the letter of the law).

Maybe Charles has a view whether a "NO FIREARMS ALLOWED" sign on local government property is eligible for the 411.209 process?

[Friendlygunner]

I can't speak for the OP, but when I first saw the sign II was going to go in as I was (legally carrying). When I looked closer I saw what I mistook for a 30.06 warning. At that point I went back to the car and left the gun there. I knew the city didn't have a right to post a 30.06 sign after reading about Houston being sued over signs at the zoo, but I didn't want to push the issue there. Next year if they have the same sign I'll go on in as I have at the state fair and present my chl. At this point they will either give me a verbal warning or let me through.

[Friendlygunner]

Should I toss the letter I wrote? The envelope is addressed and stamped, but I didn't get it in the mailbox in time today. Is it worth sending to see how they reply?

[JP171]

send it anyway, give Charles more supporting evidence for the next legislative session

[jrene]

Please send the letter. I am sending one to the City Attorney and Police Chief.

[Friendlygunner]

I'm confused.

This event was posted with 30.05 signs. I would have walked up to security and let them wand me. If they asked any questions or wanted to see my gun, i would have requested they bring an officer over, much like the State Fair a few years ago.

As someone already pointed out, a CHL excepts you from 30.05.

If they did not post 30.06 then they did not violate the new law.
If they did not inform you explicitly that your CHL was unwelcome, they did not violate the new law.

What am I missing?

NotRPB posted the text from 30.05 on the previous page, and as I understand it "defense to prosecution" is different than "exempts you from 30.05". As I understand it, they can arrest you and charge you, but you have a defense you can make during the trial. Assuming I'm reading this correctly, the 30.05 signs are not in violation of the law, and in using them cities could arrest CHL holders for entering, even though they will likely fail to get a criminal conviction.

[jrene]

The desired result here is that the Town of Addison adopt a process like the State Fair and signage so indicates the same. They can no firearms allowed per 30.05 if they want, but they should have language saying "doesn't apply to CHL holders" and then train their staff to deal with CHL holders, just like the State Fair. If they did that I would be good. But plastering signs all over the place in large block red letters saying "NO FIREARMS ALLOWED" to me is inconsistent with the spirit of 411.209 in the absence of such a process.

[chasfm11]

Another aspect of this is regarding the wanders. The ones that I faced in Lewisville were the same - paid private security.

As soon as you let them wand you or you tell them you have a CHL, you have now set up to walk down the path toward verbal notice. The wander that wanted to wand me clearly had no lack of intestinal fortitude and could easily have told me that he had the authority to deny access to CHLs, whether he had that authority or not or whether he could have that authority on city property. Then I would be faced with a he said/she said. For me, that is a much more slippery slope than not telling them or letting them wand me. My concern with just walking in and letting them wand me, discover a beep and then lift my shirt to determine its source is that it could go south. It one thing for LEOs to come to me when I'm being uncooperative with the wanding process and another for them to respond to a MWAG call.

I made an in-person call to the Lewisville PD the day after my problem at the event. I asked to speak with an officer who could answer questions about the event and met a Lt. with a great attitude. He is very CHL friendly and I've seen him at other events since. Perhaps an in person call to the Addison PD would determine if they follow the same thinking pattern or not. I'd rather see them get a warning over the signs rather than a citation.