TexasCHLforum.com

Hi, I've been wanting to get a CHL for a while now and after reading the text of the law am no longer certain if I qualify. I know this isn't a legal forum but I would nonetheless appreciate some advice regarding possible eligibility before I waste money applying only to be denied.

Some background: I take medications for some mild psychiatric mood disorders (depression, anxiety). I also was addicted to painkillers over five years ago but have been clean since then. However, I am prescribed Suboxone and have no idea whether Texas considers this, or mild mood disorders, evidence of incapacity for sound judgment. To me, blocking anyone with any kind of mental health diagnosis from a CHL seems rather extreme, as this would describe at least 30-40% of the populace.

Upon reading the text of Section 411.172 of the legislative code, the section that specifically defines eligibility criteria for a CHL, I am not at all sure where I stand. Below is the relevant section:

(d) For purposes of Subsection (a)(7), a person is incapable of exercising sound judgment with respect to the proper use and storage of a handgun if the person:

(1) has been diagnosed by a licensed physician as suffering from a psychiatric disorder or condition that causes or is likely to cause substantial impairment in judgment, mood, perception, impulse control, or intellectual ability;

(2) suffers from a psychiatric disorder or condition described by Subdivision (1) that:

(A) is in remission but is reasonably likely to redevelop at a future time; or

(B) requires continuous medical treatment to avoid redevelopment;

(3) has been diagnosed by a licensed physician, determined by a review board or similar authority, or declared by a court to be incompetent to manage the person's own affairs; or

(4) has entered in a criminal proceeding a plea of not guilty by reason of insanity.

(e) The following constitutes evidence that a person has a psychiatric disorder or condition described by Subsection (d)(1):

(1) involuntary psychiatric hospitalization;

(2) psychiatric hospitalization;

(3) inpatient or residential substance abuse treatment in the preceding five-year period;

(4) diagnosis in the preceding five-year period by a licensed physician that the person is dependent on alcohol, a controlled substance, or a similar substance; or

(5) diagnosis at any time by a licensed physician that the person suffers or has suffered from a psychiatric disorder or condition consisting of or relating to:

(A) schizophrenia or delusional disorder;

(B) bipolar disorder;

(C) chronic dementia, whether caused by illness, brain defect, or brain injury;

(D) dissociative identity disorder;

(E) intermittent explosive disorder; or

(F) antisocial personality disorder.

I could be disqualified under section (d)(1) if Texas considers a "substantial impairment" in mood to be "any impairment". Also, section (e)(4) could disqualify me. I *was* dependent on opiates, though this was more than five years ago. It's just a question of whether Texas considers a valid prescription for Suboxone to fall into the same category of dependency on a controlled substance. It's NOT in the same category, but legislative bodies tend to be fairly ignorant about Suboxone.

I was able to purchase handguns with no issues. It never occurred to me until now that I might be barred from a CHL. If anyone has similar experience or knowledge pertaining to CHLs, mood disorders, and being treated for substance abuse, I would appreciate your advice.

In the alternative, if it turns out I am barred under Texas, I know Texas has reciprocity agreements with many other states, some of which I know for a fact only bar people with psychotic disabilities or who have been institutionalized. Would I be able to get a CHL from another state, and if so, any recommendations?

This sounds familiar...

Taypo wrote:This sounds familiar...

Just answer the questions honestly, you may be asked to provide a letter from a Psychiatrist. Better to be honest, than to later be involved in a CHL involved shooting and then have a lawyer dig it all up at trial. No offense to Lawyers..

Taypo wrote:This sounds familiar...

Sorry; as you can see this was my first post here. If this subject has been discussed in any depth before I would appreciate a link to said discussion. For what it's worth I did run a search on "Suboxone" but found nothing relevant.

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=79043

Here ya go

Taypo wrote:viewtopic.php?f=53&t=79043

Here ya go

Thanks. Interesting read... I get the impression from that thread I most likely would not be approved for CHL in Texas. I can see why the alarmist nature of mass shootings and the almost inevitable description of the shooter as mentally ill might make some people very wary of "mentally ill" people carrying deadly weapons. However, one should be careful to distinguish between paranoid schizophrenics and those with mild mood disorders. It is very rare for people with mood disorders to commit violent crimes. I'd bet there is a larger threat from people with anger management issues carrying handguns than from people who had the sense to get help while going through periods of stress. Mentally ill people roaming the streets with guns...it just sounds scary because of how loaded the term "mentally ill" actually is.

Also, what protection does it offer society against murderers to prevent scary, deranged people from legally carrying weapons? I'd say virtually none, because the mass-murdering psychotics out there will not be deterred by the law. How many shooting spree maniacs have even bothered to get a CHL? I don't know of any. I'm not sure what's accomplished in publicly disarming people like me other than chipping away at the second amendment.

The ironic thing is if I'd never sought treatment, I'd have no issues getting a CHL. The fact is I'm calmer, more rational, and better able to handle stress because of the very treatments and medications that Texas code views "likely to cause substantial impairment in judgment, mood, perception, impulse control, or intellectual ability."

Hopefully I can find a reciprocating state license not so harsh towards anyone who's seen a psychiatrist before.

Shai Hulud wrote: The ironic thing is if I'd never sought treatment, I'd have no issues getting a CHL.

You made two statements relevant to the law you cited; 1) you were addicted to opiods "over five years ago" and 2) you take Suboxone for a diagnosed condition of depression and anxiety.

The law you cited states "in the preceding five-year period". If your addiction dates to more than five years ago from the date of application, then that section should not apply to you. That leaves the question of whether your diagnosis indicates that your illness is "likely to cause substantial impairment in judgment, mood, perception, impulse control, or intellectual ability;"

To my untutored eye, that means that you should get a letter from your physician indicating what your diagnosis is and ask him to include a statement that addresses the precise wording above. IOW, the patient is or is not likely to suffer "substantial impairment in judgment, mood, perception, impulse control, or intellectual ability;"

If your physician will write that letter, and if that letter states that you are not likely to suffer from those issues, then I would suggest that you submit your application. Only TX DPS can say for certain whether or not your application would be approved, but I can assure you that if you lie, either by omission of pertinent facts or by getting your dates wrong, It will not help your cause. You best bet is to be completely forthcoming, to a fault, and allow that honesty to work in your favor.

I would also suggest that you seek, if you have not already, help with discovering and remediating the underlying issues that contribute to your illness.

baldeagle wrote:You made two statements relevant to the law you cited; 1) you were addicted to opiods "over five years ago" and 2) you take Suboxone for a diagnosed condition of depression and anxiety.

The law you cited states "in the preceding five-year period". If your addiction dates to more than five years ago from the date of application, then that section should not apply to you. That leaves the question of whether your diagnosis indicates that your illness is "likely to cause substantial impairment in judgment, mood, perception, impulse control, or intellectual ability;"

Actually I'm prescribed Suboxone for the opiate addiction and a non-controlled substance for depression. I did start treatment for opiate addiction over five years ago and have not relapsed since. One of the things I was unclear about, though, is whether Suboxone is itself considered a controlled substance likely to cause substantial impairment, etc. It *is* a controlled substance and non-tolerant users can reportedly get high using it, but its effects on addicts are very different. It actually blocks the action of other opiates.

baldeagle wrote:To my untutored eye, that means that you should get a letter from your physician indicating what your diagnosis is and ask him to include a statement that addresses the precise wording above. IOW, the patient is or is not likely to suffer "substantial impairment in judgment, mood, perception, impulse control, or intellectual ability;"

If your physician will write that letter, and if that letter states that you are not likely to suffer from those issues, then I would suggest that you submit your application. Only TX DPS can say for certain whether or not your application would be approved, but I can assure you that if you lie, either by omission of pertinent facts or by getting your dates wrong, It will not help your cause. You best bet is to be completely forthcoming, to a fault, and allow that honesty to work in your favor.

This is a good idea. I think my physician would agree that my judgment, mood, etc., are not impaired by the prescriptions I'm written. I'm not sure he would agree to write a letter making a case I should carry a concealed handgun, if only because he seems rather liberal, and could be against concealed carry altogether. Couldn't hurt to ask, though!

baldeagle wrote:I would also suggest that you seek, if you have not already, help with discovering and remediating the underlying issues that contribute to your illness.

Always good advice...thanks :)

Shai Hulud wrote:

baldeagle wrote:If your physician will write that letter, and if that letter states that you are not likely to suffer from those issues, then I would suggest that you submit your application. Only TX DPS can say for certain whether or not your application would be approved, but I can assure you that if you lie, either by omission of pertinent facts or by getting your dates wrong, It will not help your cause. You best bet is to be completely forthcoming, to a fault, and allow that honesty to work in your favor.

This is a good idea. I think my physician would agree that my judgment, mood, etc., are not impaired by the prescriptions I'm written. I'm not sure he would agree to write a letter making a case I should carry a concealed handgun, if only because he seems rather liberal, and could be against concealed carry altogether. Couldn't hurt to ask, though!

I would suggest that you not discuss the weapon aspect with your physician. People get real irrational when the subject comes up, even highly educated people (especially highly educated?)

Something along the lines of "I've been asked to provide evidence that I am not impaired by the Suboxone or my anti-depressant medication and that I am not likely to be substantially impaired by my condition , and I wonder if you'd be willing to provide a statement to that effect." If he probes for more information like who is asking for the information, I would say it's with regard to a background check that I'm undergoing. If he continues to probe, I would not lie to him. I would tell him it's with regard to an application to carry a weapon for self defense.

Here's question I would ask, how would you be off of your meds?

suthdj wrote:Here's question I would ask, how would you be off of your meds?

Not sure...but I don't really see that as a valid question. How would a type 1 diabetic be off his meds? Point is I don't go off my meds.

Just as mentioned by boldegale, get your diagnosis from your Doctor and file it with your application, DPS would decide, if you are denied, you can appeal.

This is the most we can help you.

Beiruty wrote:Just as mentioned by boldegale, get your diagnosis from your Doctor and file it with your application, DPS would decide, if you are denied, you can appeal.

This is the most we can help you.

TXDPS has their own set of rules but if I had to guess, I would guess you are not eligible.