"Off Limits" locations for CHL's

[RottenApple]

DPS has a very misleading question on the CHL test on this issue. No one can be prosecuted for a violation of any law unless all of the elements of the crime are present. With TPC §30.06, this means "effective notice" that can be either verbal or written. If it's written, it must contain the exact language required by §30.06.

Schools can't use TPC §30.06 anyway, unless they are private schools.

Chas.

Thank you for the clarification, Mr. Cotton.

[mojo84]

A lease is a private contract and binding between two parties. Even with verbal approval, I would ask that it be stricken from the lease before signing it myself. That way there is no question if something happens and the lessor decides to terminate the lease on you because of the violation.

I would agree with you if it were not for the insurance problems. I've got 46 tenants in the building, and I'm confident that there are plenty of the 400+ among the staff who are both licensed and carrying. The problem we face is liability insurance. Whereas the carriers cannot force us to place a 30.06 sign in the window and inforce it, they can (1) charge more for our liability or (2) refuse coverage in the absence of such a clause in the lease.

Should someone refuse to sign due to the clause, I've got a waiting list and would understand.

Pug, I don't doubt you on this. I am curious to know if this has actually been brought up by an underwriter. I have been in the insurance business for over fifteen years with an emphasis on insuring commercial real estate and have never had this come up during the underwriting process. Just curious if this is something new or is it specific insurance company or underwriter.

[TexasGal]

Different question;
I didn't see the prohibition against carrying on COE land on the list? They do not have to post a 30.06, correct? But it is a violation to be caught carrying anywhere on the land or water they own even if it has been leased to another entity? That is my current understanding. Where are these laws located in the statues?

[74novaman]

Different question;
I didn't see the prohibition against carrying on COE land on the list? They do not have to post a 30.06, correct? But it is a violation to be caught carrying anywhere on the land or water they own even if it has been leased to another entity? That is my current understanding. Where are these laws located in the statues?

COE is governed by federal law, so relevant statutes aren't in Texas law. I'm on a phone or I'd try to look it up for you.

[RPB]

Different question;
I didn't see the prohibition against carrying on COE land on the list? They do not have to post a 30.06, correct? But it is a violation to be caught carrying anywhere on the land or water they own even if it has been leased to another entity? That is my current understanding. Where are these laws located in the statues?

They do not have to post a 30.06, they are Federal Property.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=45581&p=555347&hilit=usacoe#p555347" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The US Army Corps of Engineers has Hunting areas, if you have the proper hunting license, and they have Shooting ranges in some areas. They have regulations on how your gun must be unloaded and stored on the way to the ranges.
That does not mean a CHL can carry a concealed weapon.
The Federal Gov't does not care what State license you have
Concerning hunting, on some USACE property, it's illegal to possess a shotgun if it's assembled IIRC. Shotguns on some of their properties "presume" you are hunting illegally.

CHAPTER III--U.S. ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=16134&p=183512&hili ... er#p183512" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
PART 327--RULES AND REGULATIONS GOVERNING PUBLIC USE OF WATER RESOURCES
DEVELOPMENT PROJECTS ADMINISTERED BY THE CHIEF OF ENGINEERS

327.13 Explosives, firearms, other weapons and fireworks.
(a) The possession of loaded firearms, ammunition, loaded projectile firing devices, bows and arrows, crossbows, or other weapons is prohibited unless:
(1) In the possession of a Federal, state or local law enforcement officer;
(2) Being used for hunting or fishing as permitted under 327.8, with devices being unloaded when transported to, from or between hunting and fishing sites;
(3) Being used at authorized shooting ranges; or
(4) Written permission has been received from the District Commander.
(b) Possession of explosives or explosive devices of any kind, including fireworks or other pyrotechnics, is prohibited unless written permission has been received from the District Commander.

Nowhere does it state a CHL is valid, or that state guidelines overrule the federal.

In fact, There was a memo when Texas State Parks/National Parks became legal, that State Parks on USACE land were in fact NOT legal.

The memo link is here viewtopic.php?f=7&t=34417&p=405278&hili ... ch#p405278" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
February 22, 2010
New Federal Law Pertaining To Firearms on National Park/National Wildlife Service Lands Is Not Applicable at USACE Projects and Facilities
All -- a new law regarding firearms on some specific federal properties takes effect next week. This is not new information for us, and we have been reviewing it for quite a while. Counsel has been fully engaged. We offer the following guidance:

1. Section 512 of the Credit Card Act of 2009 (Public Law 111-024) pertains to possession of firearms and allows an individual to possess an assembled or functional firearm in any unit of the National Park Service or National Wildlife Refuge System provided that the individual is not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing the firearm and the possession is in compliance with the law of the State in which the National Park/Refuge is located. This law becomes effective on 22 February 2010 on property under the jurisdiction of the National Park Service or the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.

2. Public Law 111-024 does not apply to Corps projects or facilities. The passage of this new law does not affect application of Title 36 regulations (36 C.F.R., Chapter III, Part 327, Rules and Regulations Governing Public Use of COE Water Resources Development Projects). 36 C.F.R. § 327.13(a) prohibits the possession of loaded firearms or ammunition on lands and waters administered by the Corps unless one of the exceptions in 36 C.F.R. § 327.13(a)(1)-(4) applies. The full text of 36 C.F.R. can be viewed on the NRM Gateway at: http://corpslakes.usace.army.mil/employ ... itle36.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

3. 36 C.F.R. § 327.13 remains in full force and effect. It will continue to prohibit loaded concealed weapons on Corps properties regardless of the new law and notwithstanding any contrary provisions of State law. It remains Corps policy that we will not honor State-issued concealed weapon permits on our facilities and that District Commanders do not have discretion under 36 C.F.R. § 327.13(a)(4) to create blanket exceptions to this policy. A change of this nature to Corps regulations in 36 C.F.R. Part 327 would require formal rulemaking procedures under the Administrative Procedures Act (5 U.S.C. §§ 551-706).

4. It is incumbent upon us to communicate and reinforce our firearms regulation with our visitors and partners, which may include posting park entrances with No Firearms signs IAW the Corps sign manual (EP 310-1-6a and EP 310-1-6b) and taking other actions deemed necessary by Operations Project Managers as coordinated appropriately with other Corps elements. Information related to this matter will also be posted for public awareness on the NRM Gateway.

5. HQUSACE POCs for this matter are Stephen Austin, Natural Resources Manager, Operations (for Visitor Assistance policy and program administration information), 202-761-4489, stephen.b.austin@usace.army.mil; and Milt Boyd, Assistant Counsel, Office of Chief Counsel (for regulatory questions on federal lands) at 202-761-8546, Milton.W.Boyd@usace.army.mil.

Provided for your attention and appropriate action.
Michael G. Ensch, SES
=========================================================================================================


Asked for an exception for ACOE property...........DENIED
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=36766&p=435790&hili ... my#p435790" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Have you called your U.S Representative to change this and support the House Resolution HR 1865 by Representative Bob Gibbs mentioned above?

3. 36 C.F.R. § 327.13 remains in full force and effect. It will continue to prohibit loaded concealed weapons on Corps properties regardless of the new law and notwithstanding any contrary provisions of State law. It remains Corps policy that we will not honor State-issued concealed weapon permits on our facilities and that District Commanders do not have discretion under 36 C.F.R. § 327.13(a)(4) to create blanket exceptions to this policy. A change of this nature to Corps regulations in 36 C.F.R. Part 327 would require formal rulemaking procedures under the Administrative Procedures Act (5 U.S.C. §§ 551-706).

The above applies not only to prohibit CHLs, but any guns in cars of unlicensed MPA/Motorist Protection Act carriers in their parking areas ... as well as guns in boats under the newly passed HB 25 in "their" waters .... even if it's a State Park on land leased from the USACE.

So, some people thinking they are legal under Texas law... are in fact becoming criminals under Federal Regulation, whether licensed or not.

E-mail/call/FAX your U.S Representative to change this and support the House Resolution HR 1865 by Representative Bob Gibbs. (Before someone "accidentally" becomes a "test case" and not having money to fight the Feds, loses.)

[TexasGal]

Thanks, I missed that the original list at the beginning of this thread mentioned it did not include Federal laws. The COE lands exemption is confusing and I don't frequent those areas precisely because I would have to go unarmed. I sure wish that problem could be resolved.
Thanks for the reference to the satutes. Do we have a sticky for these? I think even Instructors are not always aware of the ACOE problem.

[Grapevinebill]

Does anyone recall seeing a web site that listed business that post 30.06 signs? I've been searching and can't find the link. I bring this up because yesterday my wife bought some furniture on line, and we went to the local store to pick it up. When we got there, there it was in both English and Spanish... Just like the lawyers wrote it up. Well I waited on the loading dock and told the wife to be careful in the crime free zone. Part of me felt like a heel for letting her go in alone and the other part of me felt like a heel for shopping at this place.....

[RPB]

Does anyone recall seeing a web site that listed business that post 30.06 signs? I've been searching and can't find the link. I bring this up because yesterday my wife bought some furniture on line, and we went to the local store to pick it up. When we got there, there it was in both English and Spanish... Just like the lawyers wrote it up. Well I waited on the loading dock and told the wife to be careful in the crime free zone. Part of me felt like a heel for letting her go in alone and the other part of me felt like a heel for shopping at this place.....

Though not "all-inclusive" as it is a user created list, you can join + add to it/comment etc. Minutes ago I got an e-mail notification of a Chevy dealership in Pasadena that was added.... you can set it to notify you on selected cities etc.

http://www.texas3006.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[C-dub]

after scanning this thread, it made me remember a question a student of mine asked about "home school" events. if a group of home school families is having a get-together, is that a school sponsored event meaning no CHL?

I'd bet this type of school doesn't meet the state's definition of a school, either public or private. I'd also bet that the home owners rights would trump trump the possible school definition.

[USA#1]

Charles,

I have always wondered about places like the State Fair of Texas and/or other permanent amusement parks. I have not been in a while to the State Fair, so my question may not be necessary. But I want to ask the hypothetical question. "Assuming" that they have metal detectors, but no 30.06 sign posted, are you allowed to carry into the park (like the State Fair) or does the verbal notice at the gate require you to put back into your vehicle once you go through the metal detector?

Thanks, Scott

[Keith B]

Charles,

I have always wondered about places like the State Fair of Texas and/or other permanent amusement parks. I have not been in a while to the State Fair, so my question may not be necessary. But I want to ask the hypothetical question. "Assuming" that they have metal detectors, but no 30.06 sign posted, are you allowed to carry into the park (like the State Fair) or does the verbal notice at the gate require you to put back into your vehicle once you go through the metal detector?

Thanks, Scott

The State Fair of Texas does not meet the legal description of an amusement park as it is not open more than 75 days a year. Secondly, there are no 30.06 signs, but they do have metal detectors. However, you can carry at the fair. See their website here at the bottom http://www.bigtex.com/sft/guestinfo/FAQs.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As for any actual amusement park, they can allow carry if they don't post a 30.06, even if they have metal detectors, if they so choose to allow CHL's to carry. You would just bypass the metal detector like you do in the State Capitol. If an amusement park doesn't have a 30.06 sign, and they give you verbal notice, then you cannot carry inside and must leave it in the car or at home.

[bizarrenormality]

As long as the amusement park is private property and not owned or leased by a government body.

[AustinBoy]

Any chance we might get this thread moved as sticky to "new to CHL"?

I think it might be more helpful in that section.

AB

[tommyg]

The Austin State (mental) Hospital has signs on the gates they
are clearly not 3006 compliant since it is state property in might
not be legally enforcable but who in his right mind
would carry in a place like that a little sense goes a long way