Had a Knife Pulled on Me While Walking My Dog in Central Lubbock

[David45LTX]

About 6 weeks ago I took my old dog (blue heeler mix) for a walk here in central Lubbock. I took a shortcut down an alleyway and along the way I snapped a quick picture of my dog as we walked, thinking nothing of it. Then I turned to walk down University towards 34th and a young man confronted me, asking "why were you taking pictures of my dogs?" I tried to explain to him that I took a picture of my dog in the alley, and apologized if I offended him, and told him there was nothing to be upset about. He asked me for my name, and I refused to give it to him (sorry, I'm only giving my name to a police officer) , and he said "ok" and walked away.

I continued walking another block or so, when another young "man" came running up to me, waving his arms, yelling "why were you taking pictures of my dogs!?!?" He got up close and I started to explain myself thinking he just wanted to talk like a normal person would and he pulled out a folding knife with the blade open and held it out to his side and up, at eye level. Again he asked the question, and I tried to explain to him that I took a picture of my dog, and that he had nothing to be upset about.

He had a crazed look on his face, and I had no idea if I was about to be slashed or stabbed or what (he was within distance to easily do that). His eyes kept going back and forth between me and my dog. While raging and threatening me with the knife he said "if I ever see you around again I'm calling the cops!" -- then he ran away (isn't that something, threatening to "call the cops" while committing a violent felony against a neighbor).

I don't have a CHL yet, but I plan to get one ASAP. I think that piece of trash was really lucky he didn't pull that stunt on the wrong person - I think it might have been perfectly justified to shoot him (maybe I'm wrong on that ?). I mean, he was within easy slashing/stabbing distance, and raging at me, acting as if he was about to do something. I also felt as if my dog was threatened (funny, he thinks someone taking a picture in an alley is somehow a threat to his dogs, but he had no problem acting as if he might stab mine).

I probably should have called the police , but didn't -- it all seemed so bizarre when it happened, and I had no witnesses, so I didn't know if anything could be done, or if the police would even believe me. And being the "I'll call the cops!" type of person I'm sure he would have lied and accused me of doing something I didn't do, and I was afraid I could end up being in trouble, when I did nothing wrong. Now I do wish I had called, just to have a report on file if nothing else, in case I have any more problems with this idiot and have to defend myself, or if he follows through with his "I'll call the cops if I see you again!" threat.

I kind of saw it as a "shame on me" sort of thing -- I should have been armed and ready to deal with the threat -- I think just displaying a gun would have caused him to back off, and maybe would have taught him a lesson. Now he may think he can treat other people the same way -- and it might not work out so well for him next time (is it bad of me to hope he gets "neutralized" if he ever does that again?).

Anyway, lesson learned, these things can happen anywhere, for any (or no) reason. Always expected that if I ever had a knife pulled on me it would be some thug wanting to rob me, not some trashy neighbor who had his feelings hurt over nothing.

[suthdj]

I believe as soon as knife came out you could have shot. Someone else will be along shortly with more detail I am sure.

[Halfsackzac]

I agree having a gun in this situation would have been to your benefit, but I disagree that showing it might have been the best option. In my eyes, and this is just my opinion, but to un-holster a concealed hand gun should only be done when you have decided you are ready to use it. In the situation you were in, or any situation of that sort, drawing your weapon will do one of two things, 1 scare him like you said and possibly teach him that pulling knives on some one could end up with you getting hurt or killed or 2, and this is why I say don't pull it unless you area ready to also pull the trigger, he goes from trying to threaten to feeling threatened and could decided to attack. The example you gave is a good one showing its not always needed to pull the gun and take the situation to that level. You were threatened and the situation was ended with both people walking away without a shot fired or a knifed used. The one thing about the situation you were in, if he was close enough with a knife to make you feel scared, 9 times out of 10 (unless you are trained at pulling and shooting on target within .005 seconds) if you had reached for your gun he would have seen your action and been able to stab or cut you before you could have the gun pulled, on target, and shot. All this being said I am not bagging on you or trolling trying to start a debate, like I said at the start this is just my opinion and I am sure there are many others that feel otherwise. It all comes down to each situation is different and some times the amount of time you have between when the situation starts and when you need to decide to pull and shoot or not is so short you might make the wrong one but just make sure no matter what you do if you decide you need to use your gun be ready to use it and do not change your mind after because once the situation is to that level you are now in a life or death situation and having a change of heart after it has been pulled could lead to you being the one the cops are bagging up.

[twomillenium]

If your the type that displays a gun to make the threat go away and when it does you don't call the police, then you are the type that probably should not carry a handgun. When he calls the police to say you threatened him with a gun and you have not called because you felt you had to because you were in fear of your life or wellbeing, then you are already at a disadvantage when the police do show up.

[David45LTX]

I believe as soon as knife came out you could have shot. Someone else will be along shortly with more detail I am sure.

Thanks for the feedback. As the other response says, at the point he had the knife out and ready it might have been too late to pull a CCW, unless maybe I could have put some distance between us and gotten it out then (hard to do while trying to control my dog too).

However, I was aware that he seemed angry as he was running up to me, and I had already been confronted by the other one -- so would it have been legal to have my hand on the grip, or have it at "low ready" (if I had had a pistol on me) ? thanks for any more input on that ...

[David45LTX]

If your the type that displays a gun to make the threat go away and when it does you don't call the police, then you are the type that probably should not carry a handgun. When he calls the police to say you threatened him with a gun and you have not called because you felt you had to because you were in fear of your life or wellbeing, then you are already at a disadvantage when the police do show up.

I don't have my CHL yet, I'm just strongly considering it because of this incident. And I'm just trying to get a feel for how more experienced people holding CHLs might have handled something like this.

If I had displayed a legal firearm I definitely would have called the police as to cover yourself. I'll bet he's the type who would go crying to the police over such a thing -- instead of just taking his lumps and learning a lesson (i.e., don't threaten somebody with a knife).

I guess thinking about it over and over in my head I'm torn on the "shoot/don't shoot" aspects of it ... I know that you shouldn't pull a pistol unless you intend to use it -- but maybe in this case just seeing it pointed at him would have caused him to back off or drop it? I don't know .. just trying to learn from others here, forgive me for my ignorance on all of this.

[C-dub]

There's a lot that goes into the decision to carry a gun. There are some things you will need to reconcile with yourself before you do. There might come a day when you have to pull that gun to defend your life or someone elses. There might come a day when you have to actually shoot someone and they might die. I'm sure there's more than just those two things, but those are two pretty big ones and something you gotta consider before getting a gun for self or home defense and then carrying one. For myself, I haven't had to shoot anyone yet nor have I drawn or even shown my gun to stop a situation the OP describes. However, I have drawn my gun when I came home once and found my front door wide open and knew there might be someone inside that I might have to shoot.

I suppose one other thing to consider and it's been said here before in a metaphor mentioned by more than just a couple of people and that's just because you have a gun doesn't mean you have to use it. I think the metaphor goes something like when you have a hammer all problems start to look like nails at some point.

In the OPs scenario, showing a gun might have stopped the crazy person's rant and sobered then up a bit. Maybe not. The display of a gun, the threat of deadly force, would have been justified by the OP in this situation. However, IMHO, the police should have been called regardless of the outcome and this person reported and arrested.

[JerryK]

This is a complex issue because it involves Texas law. Get your LTC then study the law and practice handling the firearm. You have actually experienced what most of us have gone through in our heads as a mental exercise. You are apparently unsure of the laws covering deadly force and self protection but after receiving a LTC, and study you will be clear when and why to un-holster a firearm. I am not sure if you had time to take pics of what was occurring but not calling LEO, was your only mistake in this situation.

You have already figured out this can happen to anyone anytime anywhere. Prepare, prepare, prepare!!!

[Jusme]

I agree with all the posts so far, but one thing not mentioned was situational awareness. You had been confronted once and you allowed the second person to get way too close. Always keep as much distance as possible from a potential threat. Even just putting your hand up in the stop motion as he approached is better than nothing. Have your cell phone in your hand, giving the indication you may call the police yourself .
The last thing any LTC holder wants to do is have to shoot someone, your ability to diffuse a tense situation is excellent and will serve you well even after getting your LTC. But if you are ever in a situation similar, be sure to call the police.JMHO

[rotor]

This whole story doesn't sound real to me.

[troglodyte]

I teach classes in Lubbock. When you get ready for a class let me know.

www.talonchl.

[Mike S]

There's lots of logic to all of the responses that forum members have already posted above. Here's my .02 centavos:

1. Route selection. See #2 below; it sounds as if these 2 guys are living in proximity to you, or at least along the route you walk your dog. If you know where they live, or the dogs are they don't want photographed, then select a route that avoids these areas. I'm quite certain someone will pipe in with a "... shouldn't have to modify what we do to avoid miscreants...", but in the real world we make decisions, & will have to live or die by those decisions. (You can ignore this advice, or not. Unless there's a legal requirement for you to avoid the area you can generally go where you please. However, tactically sound decisions can help you avoid trouble in the first place).

2. "Trashy neighbor gets his feelings hurt over nothing". This description gives me the impression that they are your neighbors, or live in the neighborhood. If so, have you had any further interaction with them? You also said he stated he'd call the police if he saw you in the area again, so I could be off on the proximity thing, as he seemed to view you as an 'outsider' on his turf. Regardless, if #1 can't work then there's a likelihood you'll encounter them again.

You posted that this incident occurred about 6-weeks ago. From your tone, it's still pretty raw in your emotions. (Understandably so, the guy with the knife possibly committed aggravated assault, at least a terroristic threat as defined in the penal code). However, your tone & language ("trashy neighbor") also hints at a slightly lack of maturity. See #4 below.

3. Notify the police. The interaction you describe with the first guy wasn't normal, but unless he threatened you may not have been worthy of a police report (heightened situational awareness definitely). However, when approached by the second guy (even without a knife) would have elevated concern in my mind, probably enough to warrant a call to the police (2x guys acting aggressive towards you, hypersensitive to possibility of photos being taken of their dogs). It sounds like you were successful in de-escalating the situation, so kudos on that. However, if you had reported it immediately there would already be a police report (and if police had looked into the matter there may have been an underlying reason they were acting squirrelly). It's also important for law enforcement to know of incidents from a criminal intelligence perspective; if they see an uptick in certain crimes in certain areas they can shift their limited resources to address emerging trends.

4. "Teaching someone a lesson" / "gets neutralized". This isn't why we carry. We carry in Texas for self defense, defense of a third party, or in limited circumstances to protect property. This will be covered in the LTC class, and I encourage you to pre-read the CHL-16 handbook prior to taking your class. Also, you can use the search engine on this forum; I've been mighty impressed with the wealth of knowledge on here, especially so when the relevant statutes are cited so you can continue with self development.

Also of note, most predatory humans don't think like domesticated humans. Most of us have learned to live within society's norms & laws; some live & think outside of our 'normal'. The reaction you describe from these two guys aren't what I would imagine from a reasonable, sound person. That's an indicator. (Were there even other dogs present?). The reaction I'd imagine from someone in this mindset wouldn't be to "learn" not to threaten someone with a knife; it would be to bring a gun next time, or if they are your neighbors to plan retribution. Again, refer to #1 & #3.

#5. "Hand on the grip" or pistol "at the low ready". Make sure that you are already justified in using force before intentionally displaying your pistol, otherwise you might find yourself in trouble (this should also be covered in your class). As indicated by others already, be prepared to defend yourself when you pull it; it's not just a posturing tool.

[Mxrdad]

Its good you keep playing this over and over in your mind so you can learn from it. Its easy to be a Monday morning quarterback, but some things you could take away from this is to keep your phone in your hands, not your gun. I'd also have the camera ready to record quickly. After the 2nd encounter, especially involving a knife/weapon, call 911. Also, alleys are pretty notorious for "trouble" and since youve had 2 disturbing encounters, I would avoid that alley if possible. I see many folks walking their dogs, or just simply walking and the majority of them have a walking stick. I'm sure they carry it in case they encounter other dogs, but that stick could come in real handy. I'd also consider carrying pepper spray.

As mentioned, along with carrying a gun comes a ton of responsibility. I dont think I would have threaten to pull it, or show it to him in an attempt to resolve this particular situation as you described. Once a gun is pulled, the situation is at its highest and will end by either shooting the weapon, potentially killing this man, or you re-holster. Both of these choices come with their own consequences. Dont ever take either one lightly. That guy could call the cops and claim you were trying to rob him at gunpoint and the burden would be on you to prove otherwise. And chances are the 1st guy you encountered would likely be a witness for the other guy. Again, maybe not "right", but I would avoid that alley in the future.

I would have absolutely called the cops after the 2nd altercation. I mean, the guy "pulled a knife" on you and THAT needs to be reported. I'm glad you came out of it unharmed.

[Abraham]

I agree with Rotor - sounds like a dubious story.

[Mxrdad]

I agree with Rotor - sounds like a dubious story.

I am giving him the benefit of the doubt. I agree the story seems a little off, but most real-life threats are strange to begin with. Even if its fabricated its a good discussion and food for thought.