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So a week ago, one of my co-workers was mugged at night while walking around town with another person, who unfortunately had a lot of money stolen in the encounter. Four guys had been walking behind them, when all of a sudden one of them rushed forward with a semi-automatic, demanding cash, holding them by gunpoint at very close range. Fortunately, one of the four bad guys was caught shortly afterward, so hopefully they will pressure him to give up the other three. Bad news is that the stolen cash may take a while to get recovered, if ever. And the other good news is that neither of the victims was harmed (physically).

As I've been mulling over this encounter, I keep coming up with more questions than answers. Basically: what would I have done? And: would it have worked? Because, as you probably are thinking right now, my first response was to think: Yep, that's why I carry, and had it been me in that situation, I would have used it, and won. But given the nature of the attack (surprise, from behind, with 2-1 odds), the more I think it over, I'm really not sure how it would have turned out if I was there in place of my friend.

I'm also struck by the question that Washington Post columnist raises in his really great article (cited in this thread) about becoming a new gun owner: "Does the gun indeed provide a much-needed layer of security in a dangerous city, or does it merely provide the perception of security?"

So, fellow CHLers, what are some of your tactical thoughts on this situation?

Learned from the Citizens Police Academy in Baytown.

Action beats reaction

A guy with a gun in hand ALWAYS beats the fastest draw

Guy lost the fight before it even began.

Glad he made it out in one piece...money can be re-earned or replaced..a life can't

I will say one thing. Reading that article makes me glad I live in Texas. What that person goes through just to purchase a firearm is a disgrace to our constitutional rights.

I have considered the same and determined the following:
1. I won't shoot someone to retain personal property (though I may threaten)
2. I won't draw on someone who is holding a gun on me, ever.

(Note: these are just my personal decisions; I don't propose that this is the limit of my legal rights. Goes to the point of my CHL instructor's recommendation to determine ahead of time in what situations you are willing to take someone's life.)

I couldn't have stopped this confrontation (as much as I know about it anyway), but the good guy lived through it and lives to fight another day. The only thing he could have realistically (& with acceptable risk) done with a gun is to shoot the guy after the fact while he's leaving the scene with the GG's money, and I don't think I could do that over some cash.

This is actually the situation I worry over the most, since it seems nearly indefensible. I realize that if I maintain "situational awareness" to the point of predicting an instant before, that the bad guy is going to attack and draw on me first, before he's actually taken any action worthy of having a gun in his face, I could avoid it, but that seems a bit superhuman for me, so... Even when he's running up from behind, he might have just realized he's late for something or seen someone messing with his car or friend just up the road and running to that. You still don't have the legal basis to pull a gun on him. Do you drop your wallet on the ground and try to draw on him while he bends over to pick it up? Risky just for some cash. On the other hand, you're depending on a criminal's "good nature" not to shoot you after you give him the money.

Tough situation. I'm also interested in others' thoughts on this.

The question I have is.......

Was your co-worker armed? And if so, did the robbers take his/her gun too?

SlowDave wrote:I have considered the same and determined the following:
1. I won't shoot someone to retain personal property (though I may threaten)
2. I won't draw on someone who is holding a gun on me, ever.

So what you are saying is that you will allow a perp to take your property and your gun and most probably shoot you with your own gun?

People can, and have, drawn on a drawn gun and won the encounter.

One idea is to throw the wallet or cash on the ground, the bad guy has to bend down to retrieve it, that is when the tables turn for him.

Do something to distract him!

I think this situation has several considerations:

1) You need to be aware of the situation around you. What we don't know is how the guys that were following your friend were acting prior to the attack. In my opinion you can usually pick up on someone acting in a way they are a potential threat.

2) Shooting someone for just taking property is a real judgment call. If I understand the Texas law correctly that is one of the things you can draw your gun for. However, shooting someone as they flee seems like it can have legal ramifications.

3) I bet the odds are against you for drawing on someone who already had the "drop on you".

In my opinion, if you didn't pick up on my first point, using your weapon in this situation is kinda remote. That said if the BG with the gun came after you shooting and missed...............then it becomes a different situation completly.

Just my opinion.

The mind is your most powerful weapon don't leave home without it.

Scan 360 often you can live a long long time operating in condition yellow.

If you are operating in condition white you may only be there for the rest of your short life.

Situational awareness know what and who is around you and where possible cover is at ALL times.

If walking alone do something to change the possible attack pattern ie, cross street, enter a store front, reverse direction. If in a group spread out don't let one BG get you all.

Scan 360 often,

did i mention scan 360 often?

Just walking around town is a mugger's dream, walk like you have a purpose head up, neck swiveling like a fighter pilot in a dogfight. Make the bad guys go look for an easier mark.

Did I mention situational awareness and scan 360 often? Also you need to check your companion's six as they need to check yours.

It all boils down to avoiding deadly confrontations but if one just has to come calling to be able to shoot accurately, and quickly.

Did I mention 360?

ClarkLZeuss wrote:

1. ... And: would it have worked?...

2. "Does the gun indeed provide a much-needed layer of security in a dangerous city, or does it merely provide the perception of security?"

Question 1: Can't tell in advance. There are no guarantees. Some people do everything right, and it still comes out wrong. But I have been taught, and believe, that immediate violent action beats standing around waiting to see if the other guy is going to let you live or not.

Q 2: If all you do is buy a gun and stick it in your pocket, then yes one is probably operating under an illusion. Get good training from decent professionals like Farnam, Suarez, etc. Practice. That will also answer a lot of your other questions. Really, if you wondering how you would handle this, go get the training. Having obtained and practiced some basic skills will help you think through and see what is possible.

Even without professional training, there are lots of (news) stories of people of defending themselves with guns. The vast majority come out OK for the good guy. Some do not come out well at all. Again, no guarantees. I find it hard to believe that all of those people spent the time and money to get professional training and practice every week. Apparently there is a lot ot be said for seizing the initiative and following through.

Lott cites a study of robbery/mugging attempts reported to the FBI in the late 90s. People who fought back by any means, including merely screaming, suffered fewer injuries than those who did nothing. Those who fought back with guns suffered the fewest injuries of all. Again, these are odds from all encounters, no guarantee your specific situation will come out the same way.

I find little merit in the argument "it's just money" or "it's just property," when someone is pointing a gun at me. It's not about money or property, it is about my life, and to the best of my ability I am not going to surrender the decision of whether I live or not to some thug.

I have no doubt that I would have pulled my wallet out and dropped it at his feet as I drew and opened fire on him. Since it didn't happen to me, we can't say how it would have turned out for me, but one of us would have been getting shot.

Two things I learned in the Army one was in training the other was from a Sgt. Sgt said

"A lot of the guys liked to say what they would do in a situation xyz however until you are in that situation you do not know what you would do"

. This is why you train for situations so when a situations happens your training takes over and body responds (not reacts) naturally. Now as far as the training part, in a near ambush you have 1 option you charge where the bullets are coming from screaming your head off and firing back, reason being at that close of a range (less then 50 meters) you don't stand much of a chance finding cover. Now in the situation described I think being aware of your surroundings and maneuvering your self into a defensible position or finding a different route to avoid providing an opportunity for the BG's would be best. All in all he is alive even if he feels violated at being taken advantage of.

WarHawk-AVG wrote:Action beats reaction

And the guy with the gun drawn and not shooting anybody will have to react to the defender who draws and fires without hesitation.

A guy with a gun in hand ALWAYS beats the fastest draw

http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefense ... 8117493932" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefense ... 0124821434" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefense ... 4646435945" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And that's just the month-to-date (and it's only the 6th now) of people successfully out-draw-and-shooting a drawn gun.

ClarkLZeus:
In which city did this occur so that any of us that may travel there
will know? Your profile doesn't ID your hometown or general area.

SIA