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My wife and I were getting ready to leave to meet the family for a Christmas Eve service. I commented on how the shirt I was wearing didn't go down as far as my others, and it made me nervous to wear it for fear of accidental flashing. My wife suggested I leave the gun home tonight--after all, we were just going to out to a church service. I told her that now I would have to wear it, since we made the "what could possibly go wrong?" comment. Little did I know how right I was going to be.

After the service, we turned out of the church parking lot and were driving through a residential area, although it was still on a main street in Friendswood. I am unfamiliar with this road, as we were only visiting the church. It was my wife, my 8 year old son, and myself. It was dark out. Traffic was a mess getting out of the parking lot, as 100's of people all tried to leave the church at the same time. It was cold and kind of raining out. I guess I cut some guy off, because he came up fast and was flashing his lights. I pulled over to one side to let him pass, but he slowed and kept pace with me, so I sped up and went past. He came around again, this time from a left turn only lane, and then cut across the front of my car stopping diagonally and blocking my path. There were cars parked to my right, and a car behind me. My car was blocked in.

A very angry man jumped out of the truck, shouting and cussing at me. He began approaching my door, shouting obscenities the whole time. It was one of those moments where it "happens so fast" and yet you have time to think a million thoughts. I remember thinking, "Is this it? Am I going to have to shoot this fool on Christmas Eve?" I rolled down my window and put my hand on my gun. I yelled at him in a loud and commanding voice, "Stay back! Leave us alone! Back off! Leave us alone!" I think I repeated myself about a dozen times, all the while he was continuing to shout at me and challenging me to get out of the car. I told him, "I am calling the police right now" as I held my cellphone in my left hand, right hand remaining in the ready position. I debated on telling him I had a gun, and that I would defend myself. As soon as it had begun, it was over as he turned and jumped back into his truck and drove off.

I checked him out for weapons as soon as he got out of the car, he didn't appear to have any. I didn't want to draw on the guy if possible, but I also felt that drawing may have ended the situation quicker. I resisted the "tough guy" urges to draw my weapon, even though the man was standing in the street shouting every curse word you can think of at me in front of my family. I was furious that my wife and young son were having to listen to him blather on.

When I got through to 911, he was already driving off. I gave them the license plate, description of the vehicle, and which direction he was going.

After things settled down, I talked with my wife about what happened. She confirmed my thoughts on this guy as she told me, "I thought you were going to have to shoot him. I was getting ready to reach back and cover our son's eyes."

We discussed the event at great length, and tried to come up with how this could have been better, or even avoided completely. From the time he was behind us flashing his lights till he was out of his car was maybe 20-30 seconds. He was out of his car for probably 10-15 seconds yelling at us. Not much time to think about a reaction.

For me, a couple of things stand out, but I'd also like to throw this out to the group for insight, and the valuable tactical feedback you guys often have.

1. I was very angry with myself for letting my car get boxed in. I wasn't thinking about this guy actually jumping out of his truck, but obviously he did. That alone could have made things much worse. I need to work on ways to AVOID the confrontation altogether.

2. I had pepper spray in my console, sitting right in the open. I could have easily grabbed it and used it, but the thought never even crossed my mind. I guess that shows me how useful it is in my current setup.

3. I had decided that if the guy were to come any closer, or produce a weapon of any sort, he would have been staring down the barrel of my gun. If he had produced a gun, I would have shot immediately. The thought of his return fire heading at my car with my wife and kid give me shudders.

4. At some point, I thought telling the guy I had a gun might have ended the whole thing quicker. My wife thinks it could have provoked more aggression. I know in some situations it can be considered a 'terroristic threat'. At what point can you (or should you) say "I've got a gun, leave me alone"?

5. I've never claimed to be an expert in body language, but I felt this guy wasn't going to follow through on his threats pretty quickly after he got out of the truck. My wife said his body language changed when he saw my response to him was equally as aggressive (telling him to back off, while leaning forward) and not cowering in fear. I was only leaning forward so I could grab my gun, but I guess it is an aggressive posture. In any case, he stopped advancing on our car and hung out about 8-10ft away before he returned to his truck.

6. I was kicking myself for rolling the window down. I felt like I exposed my family to more potential harm that way, if only just for protection from the foul language. Or he could have tried to spit on us. On the other hand, I had decided that if this idiot was going to come pounding on my window that I might shoot him. Rolling the window down and demanding that he stop while he was still approaching could have saved his life. Without a weapon visible, I felt comfortable that he could not harm us from where he was. Yes, I know about the 21ft thing, and 1.5 second response time... I was ready for that. If he made a move toward the car, the gun was coming out.

I also know that shooting the guy might not have been the end of it. What if the guy's wife came out of the truck afterwords going crazy because someone just shot her husband? The guy claimed to have "kids" in the car--they could have come out to see their dad get shot on Christmas Eve. Ugh...

My wife said that this renewed her interest in getting a CHL of her own. She's always been very supportive of mine, but never got hers. For her part, she also feels she should have been calling 911 from the start, instead of letting me do it. I agree, but I'm glad her first focus was on our son.

So that's about it. Please chime in, and comment so that I can learn form this experience. As I was sitting with my family later in the evening, watching my kid open some Christmas presents, I was so thankful to be there, and not at a police station giving a statement. I want to be better prepared mentally to make the right decisions. I can really see how this stuff happens so fast that you don't have time to prepare a response.


Merry Christmas to you all!

Steve, I'm glad that everything worked out OK in the end that you neither got hurt, nor had to shoot someone. I suspect you probably handled it as well as you could, given the circumstances.

Normally I wouldn't advocate leaving your car, but I toss this out there as an idea... If you had left your car, it would have A) given you some tactical maneuvering room; and B) drawn the other guy's attention away from your car (with your wife and child inside), and toward you, in case he was armed. At that point, you could give some pretty aggressive body language - hand on gun, etc. - and convince him to back off.

Analyzing it from my inexperienced viewpoint, the car affords you and your family some protection, but not nearly enough. On the downside, being trapped inside the car limits your ability to get to your gun, to draw it, and to aim and fire it without obstructions like steering wheel and windshield in the way. OTH, if you exit the vehicle but keep behind the cover of the open door, you still have some protection, you have increased mobility options, and you can always jump back into the car if you have to.

I am curious as to what some of our more tactically experienced members like Excaliber or others would say.

You didn't fire and no one was hurt. To me, that means that you did well.

Glad it worked out for well for you and the family. Just knowing you were properly prepared for defense if needed should be a comfort to you. Hopefully, that guy is at home trying to explain to his wife and kids why he was such a jerk. Maybe he will realize the danger he put his family and himself in by being such a jerk. Road rage is a bad thing that too many times comes out with the wrong ending. Anyways, glad you made it home safely try to enjoy the rest of the evening.

I think you did well under the circumstances.

It is impossible to drive on some roads in Friendswood without being boxed in at intersections. I'm thinking of FM 518, FM 528, and Bay Area Boulevard near Baybrook Mall.

CHLSteve wrote:At some point, I thought telling the guy I had a gun might have ended the whole thing quicker. My wife thinks it could have provoked more aggression. I know in some situations it can be considered a 'terroristic threat'. At what point can you (or should you) say "I've got a gun, leave me alone"?

The word gun is inflammatory.

My plan is starting with verbal de-escalation, saying, "I have no quarrel with you. I'm sorry if you don't like my driving."

My next step would be, "Stop! Stay back!"

That would be followed by, "I will defend my family."

Somehow, I have never gotten to that point.

CHLSteve wrote:5. I've never claimed to be an expert in body language, but I felt this guy wasn't going to follow through on his threats pretty quickly after he got out of the truck.

I think your instincts were right. Most of these road-ragers are overgrown bullies. They back down when bullying doesn't work.

Of course some are lunatics or sociopathic criminals. You don't know what hand is going to be dealt until you see the cards.

I suggest that you relax, enjoy the holiday with your family, and revisit this topic later.

cowboymd wrote:Hopefully, that guy is at home trying to explain to his wife and kids why he was such a jerk.

They probably already know he is a jerk, and the wife is probably in a codependent relationship. I feel sorry for the kids of someone like that. I knew some when I was a kid.

- Jim

I think you did as well as anyone could expect to do under the circumstances, given that you had no time to prep, very little time to react, and your family sitting in the car with you. I think the key here is that you stuck firmly within the bounds of a sensible and justifiable response. Drawing up on the guy would likely have transformed you into the aggressor, since you would have been meeting a possible threat of force with a definite threat of force. Even if you'd brandished and he'd immediately fled, the way is then clear for him to get on the phone and dial 911 to report that some crazy guy just drew a gun on him and his family. Warning him away like you did, while preparing to draw and fire, was absolutely the most appropriate response.

You've already touched on possibly not rolling down the window--the more I think about it, the more I agree that the window probably should have stayed up. You know Tueller, and you know that it's going to take you about 1.5 seconds to produce your gun, acquire a sight picture, and fire a round; if this guy had decided to charge your car and go for you, having to break out your window with his hands (or a bat or a tire iron or whatever) could have given you a few more slivers of time to put him between the posts. However, with the window up, you also lose the opportunity to loudly and clearly warn the guy away, which I think was a good idea to do. So, window down was not necessarily a bad thing, but I think you lose more than you gain. If worst comes to worst and the guy is absolutely committed to doing you harm, the extra time it would take to smash the window--maybe he needs an extra swing with the tire iron--could provide the time you need to stop the threat.

Good job keeping your family safe. You didn't lose your cool. seamusTX's comment about these kinds of people being bullies is spot-on. When you didn't react by going wide-eyed and throwing up your hands, the guy likely lost some of his nerve. Facing down someone is easy when you feel you have the upper hand; facing down someone who appears collected and focused, and who's leaning forward with their right hand behind them on their hip...that's enough to give anyone pause.

Kudos

I'd say you did the right thing.
As for "I guess I might have cut the guy off"

From Church? I would say if he was in the same service you were in, he REALLY needs to be there. Seriously though, it's hard to avoid being boxed-in on an unfamiliar road - but checking and double checking the traffic (if indeed it was cutting someone off) would avoid some of this so-called "road rage".

All else you did was perfect.

Just my .02

CHLSteve wrote:My wife and I were getting ready to leave to meet the family for a Christmas Eve service. I commented on how the shirt I was wearing didn't go down as far as my others, and it made me nervous to wear it for fear of accidental flashing. My wife suggested I leave the gun home tonight--after all, we were just going to out to a church service. I told her that now I would have to wear it, since we made the "what could possibly go wrong?" comment. Little did I know how right I was going to be.

After the service, we turned out of the church parking lot and were driving through a residential area, although it was still on a main street in Friendswood. I am unfamiliar with this road, as we were only visiting the church. It was my wife, my 8 year old son, and myself. It was dark out. Traffic was a mess getting out of the parking lot, as 100's of people all tried to leave the church at the same time. It was cold and kind of raining out. I guess I cut some guy off, because he came up fast and was flashing his lights. I pulled over to one side to let him pass, but he slowed and kept pace with me, so I sped up and went past. He came around again, this time from a left turn only lane, and then cut across the front of my car stopping diagonally and blocking my path. There were cars parked to my right, and a car behind me. My car was blocked in.

A very angry man jumped out of the truck, shouting and cussing at me. He began approaching my door, shouting obscenities the whole time. It was one of those moments where it "happens so fast" and yet you have time to think a million thoughts. I remember thinking, "Is this it? Am I going to have to shoot this fool on Christmas Eve?" I rolled down my window and put my hand on my gun. I yelled at him in a loud and commanding voice, "Stay back! Leave us alone! Back off! Leave us alone!" I think I repeated myself about a dozen times, all the while he was continuing to shout at me and challenging me to get out of the car. I told him, "I am calling the police right now" as I held my cellphone in my left hand, right hand remaining in the ready position. I debated on telling him I had a gun, and that I would defend myself. As soon as it had begun, it was over as he turned and jumped back into his truck and drove off.

I checked him out for weapons as soon as he got out of the car, he didn't appear to have any. I didn't want to draw on the guy if possible, but I also felt that drawing may have ended the situation quicker. I resisted the "tough guy" urges to draw my weapon, even though the man was standing in the street shouting every curse word you can think of at me in front of my family. I was furious that my wife and young son were having to listen to him blather on.

When I got through to 911, he was already driving off. I gave them the license plate, description of the vehicle, and which direction he was going.

After things settled down, I talked with my wife about what happened. She confirmed my thoughts on this guy as she told me, "I thought you were going to have to shoot him. I was getting ready to reach back and cover our son's eyes."

We discussed the event at great length, and tried to come up with how this could have been better, or even avoided completely. From the time he was behind us flashing his lights till he was out of his car was maybe 20-30 seconds. He was out of his car for probably 10-15 seconds yelling at us. Not much time to think about a reaction.

For me, a couple of things stand out, but I'd also like to throw this out to the group for insight, and the valuable tactical feedback you guys often have.

1. I was very angry with myself for letting my car get boxed in. I wasn't thinking about this guy actually jumping out of his truck, but obviously he did. That alone could have made things much worse. I need to work on ways to AVOID the confrontation altogether.

2. I had pepper spray in my console, sitting right in the open. I could have easily grabbed it and used it, but the thought never even crossed my mind. I guess that shows me how useful it is in my current setup.

3. I had decided that if the guy were to come any closer, or produce a weapon of any sort, he would have been staring down the barrel of my gun. If he had produced a gun, I would have shot immediately. The thought of his return fire heading at my car with my wife and kid give me shudders.

4. At some point, I thought telling the guy I had a gun might have ended the whole thing quicker. My wife thinks it could have provoked more aggression. I know in some situations it can be considered a 'terroristic threat'. At what point can you (or should you) say "I've got a gun, leave me alone"?

5. I've never claimed to be an expert in body language, but I felt this guy wasn't going to follow through on his threats pretty quickly after he got out of the truck. My wife said his body language changed when he saw my response to him was equally as aggressive (telling him to back off, while leaning forward) and not cowering in fear. I was only leaning forward so I could grab my gun, but I guess it is an aggressive posture. In any case, he stopped advancing on our car and hung out about 8-10ft away before he returned to his truck.

6. I was kicking myself for rolling the window down. I felt like I exposed my family to more potential harm that way, if only just for protection from the foul language. Or he could have tried to spit on us. On the other hand, I had decided that if this idiot was going to come pounding on my window that I might shoot him. Rolling the window down and demanding that he stop while he was still approaching could have saved his life. Without a weapon visible, I felt comfortable that he could not harm us from where he was. Yes, I know about the 21ft thing, and 1.5 second response time... I was ready for that. If he made a move toward the car, the gun was coming out.

I also know that shooting the guy might not have been the end of it. What if the guy's wife came out of the truck afterwords going crazy because someone just shot her husband? The guy claimed to have "kids" in the car--they could have come out to see their dad get shot on Christmas Eve. Ugh...

My wife said that this renewed her interest in getting a CHL of her own. She's always been very supportive of mine, but never got hers. For her part, she also feels she should have been calling 911 from the start, instead of letting me do it. I agree, but I'm glad her first focus was on our son.

So that's about it. Please chime in, and comment so that I can learn form this experience. As I was sitting with my family later in the evening, watching my kid open some Christmas presents, I was so thankful to be there, and not at a police station giving a statement. I want to be better prepared mentally to make the right decisions. I can really see how this stuff happens so fast that you don't have time to prepare a response.


Merry Christmas to you all!

Tough situation, good calls throughout, and a happy ending.

You did very well indeed.

Here are a couple of thoughts from an after action review standpoint:

1. The Annoyed Man's tactic of starting off with an apology is disarming to an angry person, and serves as a test of rationality.
Even someone who is really offended will often cool down at that. If it has no effect, it tells you that you're dealing with
someone who lets his emotions get the better of him. If that's the case, beware - he's volatile and could easily do something
both stupid and violent.

2. Your, your wife, and your son are a family and would benefit from discussing how you can perform as a team when threatened.
Having your wife routinely cover your "6" in street threat situations by scanning from 3 o'clock to 9 o'clock while you deal with
an identified potential threat from the front is one example. If you are the armed one and she is not, communications duties
(calling 911) should fall to her and should be done immediately as soon as a threat is perceived. A bit of training in what to say
and how to say it would make this easier and more effective. Another training point is that if the aggressor produces a gun
while your family is in the car, wife and son should be trained to release the seatbelts and get down on the floorboards to
get them out of potential lines of fire as much as possible.

3. Rolling the window down was a good tactic because it enabled you to communicate with your potential aggressor at a distance.
If you had left it rolled up, chances are very good that he would have come much closer to make sure you could hear him and
increased the danger to you and your family.

4. Did you unfasten your seatbelt and let it fully retract? Under circumstances like this you want to do that to give yourself that
additional mobility in case you need it. It also removes a significant obstacle that could entangle your gun if you have to draw.
Hitting the "lock" button to lock all doors is also a real good tactic. It prevents your antagonist from simply opening a door and
trying to drag you out of the vehicle.

5. Staying in the car was good from a partial cover standpoint, and also from an escalation avoidance standpoint. If you had gotten
out, your antagonist may well have seen that as an aggressive action and may have escalated to a physical confrontation. It
also doesn't look good in police reports. People inside vehicles are much safer from unarmed people outside than they would
be if they were outside also. If your antagonist had advanced without producing a weapon, simply rolling up your window would
have given you good temporary protection. If he picks up an object and tries to break into the vehicle, you've got a much clearer
situation for use of force.

6. I do not advise telling someone you have a gun. This is not good from an escalation standpoint, and is not a good thing for
witnesses to tell investigating officers. Your commands to stay back and leave you alone were clear and neutral. If he did
advance on you, you could have added something along the lines of "Don't come any closer. I will defend my family."
In Texas, it's pretty clear what that means but doesn't sound bad at all on a police report.

Please understand these are not criticisms of anything you did. They're just thoughts for improving your tactics in the event you are faced with another situation like this sometime down the road.

Your actions were well within what a reasonable person would do under the circumstances, and your handling of the incident let everyone go home safely. This is a great outcome by any measure.

Merry Christmas!!

I would also say you did well. I also would never tell someone I had a gun, I think it would escalate some situations. The only time they would know I had a gun is when the point came when I needed to use it and it was pointed at them. I have always thought I would use the "apologetic approach" (I know of one person this has worked for in this exact situation), if I had someone else in the car with me I would tell them to call the Police while I was dealing with the individual.

pokrface wrote:Drawing up on the guy would likely have transformed you into the aggressor, since you would have been meeting a possible threat of force with a definite threat of force. Even if you'd brandished and he'd immediately fled, the way is then clear for him to get on the phone and dial 911 to report that some crazy guy just drew a gun on him and his family.

This is not just a hypothetical possibility. A CHL holder in this county drew on a road-rager. The road-rager backed off, but then called 911 to report the CHL holder. To make matters worse, the road-rager had a companion that corroborated his account.

Unfortunately, I don't know how that worked out in the end. I'm sure it cost the guy, though.

- Jim

seamusTX wrote:

pokrface wrote:Drawing up on the guy would likely have transformed you into the aggressor, since you would have been meeting a possible threat of force with a definite threat of force. Even if you'd brandished and he'd immediately fled, the way is then clear for him to get on the phone and dial 911 to report that some crazy guy just drew a gun on him and his family.

This is not just a hypothetical possibility. A CHL holder in this county drew on a road-rager. The road-rager backed off, but then called 911 to report the CHL holder. To make matters worse, the road-rager had a companion that corroborated his account.

Unfortunately, I don't know how that worked out in the end. I'm sure it cost the guy, though.

- Jim

I'm reminded of this post I made over a year ago (http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... 53&t=11086" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). I was asking if you're required to report an incident that gets diffused and goes no further than producing your weapon. The general consensus that I have come to agree with is "the first person to call 911 is the victim".

Guys, thank you all for your kind words, and insight into this situation. I am so relieved that it didn't come down to shooting the guy. Going over the sequence again, I think the guy was either a huge jerk, or just had a really bad day (that almost got much worse!). He didn't seem high or drunk, so my gut feeling was that he was a nearly rational person that could be talked out if it. However, I've never had my hand on my gun, ready to point it at another human being before in my life, and it was a trying situation.

I guess I always expected that I might have to use deadly force against a predator type of attacker like a robber, rather than just some angry dude. I'm so glad I've spent time on this forum, reading, and talking with other folks about proper response. I really drew on that experience last night.

Excaliber, you make some great points, and I appreciate your input. Taking off my seat belt is something I never thought of. I don't think it would have affected my draw, but it could have hindered me from getting out of the car if needed. I had no intention of getting out, but the circumstances could have changed quickly.

Starting with an apology.... why didn't I think of that?!? I've used that tactic before, and even had it used on me when I was much younger. I remember the disarming sensation it can bring.

CHLSteve wrote:Starting with an apology.... why didn't I think of that?!?

Probably you didn't think of it because it is not a natural reaction.

The natural reaction to aggression is either to return it or flee.

I spent a long time commuting to work and had a number such confrontations. The apology (however feigned) often worked. In other cases, when the goofball got out of his vehicle, I was able to simply drive away.

- Jim

The Annoyed Man wrote:Steve, I'm glad that everything worked out OK in the end that you neither got hurt, nor had to shoot someone. I suspect you probably handled it as well as you could, given the circumstances.

Normally I wouldn't advocate leaving your car, but I toss this out there as an idea... If you had left your car, it would have A) given you some tactical maneuvering room; and B) drawn the other guy's attention away from your car (with your wife and child inside), and toward you, in case he was armed. At that point, you could give some pretty aggressive body language - hand on gun, etc. - and convince him to back off.

Analyzing it from my inexperienced viewpoint, the car affords you and your family some protection, but not nearly enough. On the downside, being trapped inside the car limits your ability to get to your gun, to draw it, and to aim and fire it without obstructions like steering wheel and windshield in the way. OTH, if you exit the vehicle but keep behind the cover of the open door, you still have some protection, you have increased mobility options, and you can always jump back into the car if you have to.

I am curious as to what some of our more tactically experienced members like Excaliber or others would say.

I disagree (in my opinion)...exiting your vehicle would have been and could be construed as escalating the situation...rolling down the window and telling the guy to back off was the trigger point...further aggression or advancement on his vehicle then would have been the aggressive attacker and saved him...getting out of the car would have been seen as you stepping up to the challenge. Plus in case of emergency...a quick shift and a flooring of the gas pedal puts much more distance between an attacker and you...even if you had to shove his vehicle out of the way. A vehicle is by far cover...but it beats standing out in the open.

I am glad it all worked out and the situation defused itself...fortunate for that guy he knew not to advance on a vehicle after initiating a confrontation...doing so can and usually ends badly

CHLSteve wrote:I pulled over to one side to let him pass, but he slowed and kept pace with me, so I sped up and went past.

This is when you should have had your wife calling 911. There are a lot of bad things he could have started at this point, and several of them can't be effectively countered with a handgun.

As for during the stop, if it's after dark, use that to your advantage; concealed by darkness is still concealed, so get the gun out and keep it low. Roll the window down just enough to use a tactical light to keep the assailant blind to what's going on in your car. Forget using pepper spray from inside the car; if any wafts back in, you're going to have a hard time seeing well enough to use the car for an effective escape. Foam or the Kimber LifeAct might be an option, though I've never tried either of those from a car to be sure.