CHL holder killed by police in Las Vegas at a Costco

[Oldgringo]

I sure hope nothing "happened" to the video, but his comment sure makes me worry.

Chas.

What does that one commercial say, "What happens in Vegas...stays in Vegas"? You reckon that they've heard it so often that they believe it?

[seniorshooteress]

Speaking of commercials, has anyone seen anything about this on tv or heard about it on the radio? I haven't and hubs listens to radio to and from work and he knew nothing about it. Seems like the only place giving this story any 'air' time is the internet.

[C-dub]

I am a firm believer that MOST LEO are good decent people and that sometimes stuff happens that causes them to react in a way they wouldn't normally act. I respect LEO but in this instance I feel something went terribly wrong and one of these officers involved in this decided to make this terrible accident, justified. So only in movies or on TV do some police try to cover up their mistakes? To protect a career/pension/reputation, stay out of jail or some other reason.. There was utter chaos so who was going to notice if a gun were thrown on the ground. I know most CHL's have BUG's but which do you present 1st? The one in your waistband or your BUG? This man had a gun STILL in his waistband. So maybe he had a double holster rig with 2 guns on his hip? I, too, am very interested to see if videos will be available and wondering if anyone in the crowd videoed it with cell phone or something. (The purse snatching at WalMart was online for all to see a day after the incident and it was from the stores survalence camera) If so, they may be scared to let anyone know they have it depending on what it depects as the actual happening. Normally things like this make it to YouTube before it makes it to the media. We all have our opinions and this is mine.

Yeah, but with that purse snatching video the police wanted the public's help. I don't think they want any help with this one unless it supports their version.

[Keith B]

Only the local stations in Las Vegas which is where the links are to. It did not go National or AP AFAIK

[Charles L. Cotton]

Speaking of commercials, has anyone seen anything about this on tv or heard about it on the radio? I haven't and hubs listens to radio to and from work and he knew nothing about it. Seems like the only place giving this story any 'air' time is the internet.

I've noticed that also.

Chas.

[baldeagle]

I just got done listening to the father's interview. If the police did something wrong and they attempt to cover it up, I think this father will be their worst nightmare.

[karl]

Hopefully their guilty conscience will be a close second.

[Excaliber]

I am a firm believer that MOST LEO are good decent people and that sometimes stuff happens that causes them to react in a way they wouldn't normally act. I respect LEO but in this instance I feel something went terribly wrong and one of these officers involved in this decided to make this terrible accident, justified. So only in movies or on TV do some police try to cover up their mistakes? To protect a career/pension/reputation, stay out of jail or some other reason.. There was utter chaos so who was going to notice if a gun were thrown on the ground. I know most CHL's have BUG's but which do you present 1st? The one in your waistband or your BUG? This man had a gun STILL in his waistband. So maybe he had a double holster rig with 2 guns on his hip? I, too, am very interested to see if videos will be available and wondering if anyone in the crowd videoed it with cell phone or something. (The purse snatching at WalMart was online for all to see a day after the incident and it was from the stores survalence camera) If so, they may be scared to let anyone know they have it depending on what it depects as the actual happening. Normally things like this make it to YouTube before it makes it to the media. We all have our opinions and this is mine.

Whenever mistakes are made, even when the results are tragic, the absolute worst thing that can be done is to try to cover them up. In the Nevada situation with so many eyewitnesses, plentiful physical evidence, and a very good likelihood that some type of video was recorded by someone, the chances of successfully "revising" reality is zero.

A tragic error in judgment in a chaotic situation, if that's what occurred, is just that, and its consequences must be dealt with. However, giving false statements, intentionally tampering with evidence or witnesses, or falsifying reports in a potential wrongful death case are serious crimes that could easily end the careers of officers who weren't present during the incident if they committed those criminal acts during the investigation.

No officer who takes his oath of office seriously would go down that path. Anyone who does is a blight on the profession, and must be removed from it to preserve both the integrity of the organization and the trust of the citizenry.

[baldeagle]

Excaliber, are you an LEO? (This is not meant as derogatory.) I get the impression that you are. I ask, because I have some questions for you, if you are.

[PeteCamp]

I am terribly saddened by this entire affair. I have worn a badge for almost 9 years. I have stood with right hand raised and made a commitment to my community, state, and nation. I am a Police Chaplain so thank God I don't have to make the split second life and death decisions, but I have dealt with the aftermath more times than I wished to. I have two observations on this matter that trouble me.

We frequently hear (on other CCW forums, and sometimes here) that having a CHL does not automatically make you a good guy in the estimation of the police. That is true. Erik Scott was not an automatic good guy. But please allow me to point out that just because you take an oath and put on a badge does not grant you good guy status either. I have a friend who wore a badge for many years and told me to my face the most preposterous lie I had ever heard. He later pled guilty to the charges in Federal court and will probably die in prison. He deserves every second of that sentence. He broke the faith with every officer who bravely wears the badge and faithfully and lawfully serves his or her community - on purpose. This week we saw an NYPD officer caught in a blatant lie both on camera and in court. In my view, anytime an officer, or a department, breaks the faith they deserve every moment of the jail time. I pray this is not the case here with LVMPD but something, as they say, is quacking like a duck.

If the LVMPD officers made a mistake, so be it. Let us hope it becomes a training lesson, harsh as it is, for every officer who faces a similar situation. Given who Erik's father is, it will be a grim lesson for the city of Las Vegas. What really worries me is that if this was worst case and Erik did absolutely nothing wrong, and those facts are proven in court, then what happened to him could easily happen to me. I have a CHL and carry off duty. I could have been in Erik's shoes. The same could happen to any one of us who legally carry. That is a chilling thought.
<rant off>

Charles: I have not had any luck reading through the Nevada concealed carry laws, about prohibited carry in establishments that are posted. Can you give me a reference? I also understand the Nevada Legislature in 2007 passed a law that cities cannot enact legislation that goes beyond state statutes regarding legal carry. I was just curious what legal problem carrying in the Costco entailed.

[baldeagle]

NRS 202.3673 Permittee authorized to carry concealed firearm while on premises of public building; exceptions; penalty.

1. Except as otherwise provided in subsections 2 and 3, a permittee may carry a concealed firearm while the permittee is on the premises of any public building.

2. A permittee shall not carry a concealed firearm while the permittee is on the premises of a public building that is located on the property of a public airport.

3. A permittee shall not carry a concealed firearm while the permittee is on the premises of:

(a) A public building that is located on the property of a public school or a child care facility or the property of the Nevada System of Higher Education, unless the permittee has obtained written permission to carry a concealed firearm while he or she is on the premises of the public building pursuant to subparagraph (3) of paragraph (a) of subsection 3 of NRS 202.265.

(b) A public building that has a metal detector at each public entrance or a sign posted at each public entrance indicating that no firearms are allowed in the building, unless the permittee is not prohibited from carrying a concealed firearm while he or she is on the premises of the public building pursuant to subsection 4.

4. The provisions of paragraph (b) of subsection 3 do not prohibit:

(a) A permittee who is a judge from carrying a concealed firearm in the courthouse or courtroom in which the judge presides or from authorizing a permittee to carry a concealed firearm while in the courtroom of the judge and while traveling to and from the courtroom of the judge.

(b) A permittee who is a prosecuting attorney of an agency or political subdivision of the United States or of this State from carrying a concealed firearm while he or she is on the premises of a public building.

(c) A permittee who is employed in the public building from carrying a concealed firearm while he or she is on the premises of the public building.

(d) A permittee from carrying a concealed firearm while he or she is on the premises of the public building if the permittee has received written permission from the person in control of the public building to carry a concealed firearm while the permittee is on the premises of the public building.

5. A person who violates subsection 2 or 3 is guilty of a misdemeanor.

6. As used in this section:

(a) “Child care facility” has the meaning ascribed to it in paragraph (a) of subsection 5 of NRS 202.265.

(b) “Public building” means any building or office space occupied by:

(1) Any component of the Nevada System of Higher Education and used for any purpose related to the System; or

(2) The Federal Government, the State of Nevada or any county, city, school district or other political subdivision of the State of Nevada and used for any public purpose.

Ê If only part of the building is occupied by an entity described in this subsection, the term means only that portion of the building which is so occupied.

(Added to NRS by 1995, 2725; A 1997, 63; 1999, 2767; 2007, 1914)

http://www.leg.state.nv.us/nrs/NRS-202.htmlf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't see anything in Nevada law prohibiting carry in private businesses like Costco.

[baldeagle]

This is not good.

Detectives hope to view surveillance video of the incident, but have sent it for forensic examination because of a technical issue with Costco's recording equipment. It's still unclear if the incident was even captured on video or if the equipment was working properly the day of the shooting.

And I don't understand this at all.

Police have also refused to release the 911 tapes made during the incident.

Release the tapes! Holding on to them only makes it worse for the PD. It's bad enough that Erik is dead. Giving the appearance of a coverup fans the flames.

I have the greatest respect for law enforcement. I think they do a job that is often thankless at great risk to their own lives every day. The good they do is seldom noticed, and the bad they do is trumpeted to the heavens. If I have one criticism of law enforcement it is that they tend to circle the wagons in a situation like this rather than approaching it calmly and rationally and investigating it like they would any other suspected crime. Gather the evidence, let the chips fall where they may and get the truth out. If the 911 tape reveals a Costco employee grossly exaggerating the threat, then that goes toward the credibility of the cops who arrive on the scene expecting a confrontation. They may still have shot too hastily, but at least it would have been understandable. As it is, the PD is engaging in horrible PR mistakes.

[PeteCamp]

I don't see anything in Nevada law prohibiting carry in private businesses like Costco.

Thanks baldeagle. I didn't see anything there either and since it seems so simple compared to Texas law, figured I just missed it. Some have implied that he was breaking the law carrying inside Costco. I found this site that seems to imply Las Vegas law is different from Nevada law.
http://www.shouselaw.com/nevada/concealed-weapon.html#3
(see the very last bullet)

This may be one of those laws the Legislature took aim at in 2007. In any event, even trespassing is a misdemeanor. Thanks again.

[Keith B]

I don't see anything in Nevada law prohibiting carry in private businesses like Costco.

Thanks baldeagle. I didn't see anything there either and since it seems so simple compared to Texas law, figured I just missed it. Some have implied that he was breaking the law carrying inside Costco. I found this site that seems to imply Las Vegas law is different from Nevada law.
http://www.shouselaw.com/nevada/concealed-weapon.html#3
(see the very last bullet)

This may be one of those laws the Legislature took aim at in 2007. In any event, even trespassing is a misdemeanor. Thanks again.

Unless they had a sign stating no firearms. Any no-gun sign is valid in Nevada (Section 3 (b))

[Excaliber]

Excaliber, are you an LEO? (This is not meant as derogatory.) I get the impression that you are. I ask, because I have some questions for you, if you are.

I spent 20 years as an LEO and retired as a captain in a 200 officer agency.

My responsibilities included investigating indications and allegations of misconduct whether they arose internally or externally.

The only way to carry out those duties successfully is to question everything, go wherever the evidence leads, document every forensic fact, statement, corroboration, refutation and contradiction, and let the chips fall where they may.