encounter at wallyworld - calling all armchair QB's

[mrcharlie]

My $.02
Back in the motorcycle racing days we called this "bench racing" :-) VERY INSTRUCTIVE.

As an old guy and recent CHL holder, it dawned on me pretty quickly that there was more to carrying a gun than just knowing how to shoot. So I've been working my way up that learning curve for the past few months. This "Never Again" forum has been a great help. Talking with folks, reading, and a couple of NRA self-defense DVDs have helped too.

A big light bulb moment for me was realizing that I don't have to DEFEAT the adversary in order to avoid being clobbered. There are usually many other options. And, IMHO, it sounds like there were plenty of other options in this WW encounter also.

Thanks for bringing the story to this forum, and thanks to all the responders. You all help a lot.

[esxmarkc]

I honestly believe this is an exceptionally good thread. I believe that TAM’s original post on this thread is indeed the most technically correct regarding the applicable laws and his speech/dissertation on “guarding the culture” as PeteCamp eloquently called it is indeed most admirable. But I also believe that any situation where a group of individuals (or punks) using inappropriate language draws the interaction of a CHL holder and then escalates to the use deadly force by the CHL holder goes down in the books as an epic fail (from my daughter’s vocabulary).

TAM stated:

I don't believe that politely asking someone who is offending everyone around them to please not use such language in the presence of children rises to the level of a verbal provocation.

While this is true, when I read your account of the situation I don’t feel that is what happened. It seems like there was a total disregard for the dynamics of alpha male to alpha male interaction that is overlooked here. In your words:

a guy with 4 of his friends are cussing like crazy. I ask them to "please watch your language around my son" and continue checking my stuff out

You have to understand that out in public with your son/family in tow you are certainly alpha male of your group. And you can be sure that any group of 4 other guys likely has someone who is dominant alpha-male.

"Please watch your language around my son" is not asking someone to do something, it is a command sugar coated with a “please” stuck on the front of it. If you bark that at a group of guys (not addressing or acknowledging the alpha of the group) and you if say it loud enough that other onlookers stop and look at that group you can certainly bet that the alpha of that group is going to step up and issue a response – and it is not likely to be compliant in nature.

Take a look at the dynamics of the statement “please watch your language around my son". In that one statement you asserted yourself as alpha and the authority on what was/is acceptable language/behavior within that sphere of interaction. You scolded their behavior and then expected them to become compliant and modify their behavior to suit your approval. Scolding an alpha in front of his group is almost guaranteed to elicit a non-compliant response.

The guy (who my son said that he was saying that he was a marine...not the ones that I have met, but anyway), says "no I will not" and does the ole star down.

That was the alpha giving you his non-compliant response. Then you stated:

I ask him to please act like an adult and go back to finishing checking out.

This was pure escalation on your part. Once again asserting yourself as the authority on what is acceptable behavior. You can’t really expect that this alpha that you have called out and now put in a non-compliant mode is going to suddenly modify his behavior especially after again scolding him – not a chance.

He walks up to the cart and puts his hand on it, I get between my son and grab the other end of the cart and put my hand at the ready.

Your physical stance is certainly what you should do given his actions but you should have also now been in full verbal de-escalation mode. You initiated the interaction and then escalated it (as did he). And now if you are not prepared to put pride/honor aside and utter the simple words “My apologies” then you may want to indeed consider leaving those implements of deadly force at home. I’m not talking about turning into a quivering apologetic mold of jello, but simply addressing him directly and calmly with the words “My apologies. My son and I are just going to finish checking out and be on our way.” With that simple statement you acknowledge him as alpha, issue a compliant response and turn control of the situation over to him to allow you to leave. Of course you and I know that you can actually retake control the situation at a moment’s notice by the presentation of force but this way he gets to save face within his group and his “out” is easy – he simply lets you leave.

All these ideas of “guarding the culture” are fine and I admire the thought and idea of it but your first and foremost duty to your family is their physical safety and well being. You were being a good parent when you attempted to limit your son’s exposure to unacceptable language but you did so by pressuring strangers modify their behavior to suit your acceptance and ultimately pulled your son into a situation with you that placed his well being at risk.

You must have explored all the “what if’s” by now and certainly one of the worst is “what if all of them were packing?” But if none of them were armed and you did have to use deadly force I bet more than a dollar that you wouldn’t be sleeping in your own bed that night regardless of how correct TAM’s technical assessment is on how the laws apply to the situation. Your son witnessing a shooting point blank and having his dad hauled away for it is likely to set your family up for some serious counseling time at the least.

As for the discussion of “guarding the culture” (I really like that term as you can tell), I have likely done my share of it. I have “reminded” strangers about trash they forgot to pick up, to please hold phone conversations outside during movies etc., etc., but I have never corrected anyone for their use of language. The problem I have with that is it is objective as what you or I believe is profane. I grew up in the inner north side of Houston and certainly the micro culture there supports a more colorful flavor of the English language than does the Woodlands where I now reside. The idea of “guarding the culture” is a noble one but it can be very objective in nature and likely deserves its own thread.

dewayneward, the best part of the experience is that you didn’t threaten or use deadly force and absolutely no one got injured and that alone constitutes a “win”. It is great of you to post it up here for us to dissect to pieces and to be honest I can only offer up the post-game analysis. I apologize if it seems I am judging you harshly especially since I can’t guarantee that I would have acted any better or worse in realtime. I did make a promise to myself when I began carrying that I would AT ALL COSTS avoid escalation of any verbal altercation, or road rage type situation to the point of using deadly force. I have lived for 50 years without needing to rely on the use of a handgun to solve these types of altercations and I can easily do another 50. That is not why I carry.

Be safe!

[gigag04]

Couldn't agree more. In my initial reading of the OP a few days back, it seemed like it was a contest of sorts.


To the OP, how you have handled the situation if you had know that you did not have a weapon, other than your words?

[Hoi Polloi]

This is one of the silliest threads I've read on this forum. I can see the headlines now:

WalMart Customer Shoots Unarmed Marine At Checkout For Touching His Cart: Said Marine's Cursing Caused Him to Fear for His Life



My first thought is that the four friends either were so well behaved that you didn't notice them until you were right upon them, meaning they weren't being disruptive and you were the instigator OR you did notice their boorish behavior before heading down the adjacent self-checkout line and you weren't in fear then and decided to provoke them uninstigated OR you noticed, you feared them, and then instead of heading a lane over you escalated by then confronting them. Either they weren't a threat or you chose to place yourself intentionally in harm's way in my opinion.

Once it got to the point of a guy touching your cart on one side and you feeling like things were escalating, what could you do? It seems to me that you could turn around and walk away, or back away, just fine. There are a lot of potential reactions from the guy, but it seems the most likely would be to talk smack with his friends without moving. Had you not even tried diffusion techniques or to get out of the situation when you initially thought they were safe enough to approach and correct, meaning they weren't doing anything different except touching your cart, I wouldn't have much sympathy were I on your jury.

I recommend some situational awareness from now on. That would have avoided the entire encounter.

[b322da]

I honestly believe this is an exceptionally good thread.

I could not agree more.

The interchange here has been excellent, and was an exceedingly helpful review of the limitations on the use of deadly force. I have taken the renewal course three times, each from a different instructor, and only at the last one was there an indepth look at this ultimate issue. In fact, the last course was almost 100% on this subject, rather than the typical quibbling about 30.06 signs -- really not worth the effort at a renewal course.

The first two renewal courses barely touched on this subject, if at all. After receiving my last course I have, perhaps unfairly, concluded that there was a very good chance that the instructors just did not feel competent to get into this in the depth we all need.

This old man hopes to be able to attend Charles' next refresher on the subject, and I intend to watch the forum carefully to get a time and place. After all, this is the ultimate, and most critical, issue we might face.

Elmo

[dewayneward]

Couldn't agree more. In my initial reading of the OP a few days back, it seemed like it was a contest of sorts.


To the OP, how you have handled the situation if you had know that you did not have a weapon, other than your words?

I did answer that question earlier in these posts :-) I wouldnt have done anything differently.

I have had some time to reflect on the event (and appreciate TAM's and a few others responses) and I can say now that they were actually out looking for trouble.

I had actually gotten into the self checkout line and as I was checking things out is when the event unfolded. I latered realized something, none of them were actually buying anything....which leads me to the conclusion that they were out to cause problems.

To reexplain the cart incident, he grabbed the cart in an effort to move it out of the way to get to me(I assume)I grabbed the cart to create a barrier and create distance.

I am glad that there are some that will be able to benefit from this experience. I will say that I am a little surprised at some of the responses , but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

[VMI77]

I honestly believe this is an exceptionally good thread. I believe that TAM’s original post on this thread is indeed the most technically correct regarding the applicable laws and his speech/dissertation on “guarding the culture” as PeteCamp eloquently called it is indeed most admirable. But I also believe that any situation where a group of individuals (or punks) using inappropriate language draws the interaction of a CHL holder and then escalates to the use deadly force by the CHL holder goes down in the books as an epic fail (from my daughter’s vocabulary).

TAM stated:

I don't believe that politely asking someone who is offending everyone around them to please not use such language in the presence of children rises to the level of a verbal provocation.

While this is true, when I read your account of the situation I don’t feel that is what happened. It seems like there was a total disregard for the dynamics of alpha male to alpha male interaction that is overlooked here. In your words:

a guy with 4 of his friends are cussing like crazy. I ask them to "please watch your language around my son" and continue checking my stuff out

You have to understand that out in public with your son/family in tow you are certainly alpha male of your group. And you can be sure that any group of 4 other guys likely has someone who is dominant alpha-male.

"Please watch your language around my son" is not asking someone to do something, it is a command sugar coated with a “please” stuck on the front of it. If you bark that at a group of guys (not addressing or acknowledging the alpha of the group) and you if say it loud enough that other onlookers stop and look at that group you can certainly bet that the alpha of that group is going to step up and issue a response – and it is not likely to be compliant in nature.

Take a look at the dynamics of the statement “please watch your language around my son". In that one statement you asserted yourself as alpha and the authority on what was/is acceptable language/behavior within that sphere of interaction. You scolded their behavior and then expected them to become compliant and modify their behavior to suit your approval. Scolding an alpha in front of his group is almost guaranteed to elicit a non-compliant response.

The guy (who my son said that he was saying that he was a marine...not the ones that I have met, but anyway), says "no I will not" and does the ole star down.

That was the alpha giving you his non-compliant response. Then you stated:

I ask him to please act like an adult and go back to finishing checking out.

This was pure escalation on your part. Once again asserting yourself as the authority on what is acceptable behavior. You can’t really expect that this alpha that you have called out and now put in a non-compliant mode is going to suddenly modify his behavior especially after again scolding him – not a chance.

He walks up to the cart and puts his hand on it, I get between my son and grab the other end of the cart and put my hand at the ready.

Your physical stance is certainly what you should do given his actions but you should have also now been in full verbal de-escalation mode. You initiated the interaction and then escalated it (as did he). And now if you are not prepared to put pride/honor aside and utter the simple words “My apologies” then you may want to indeed consider leaving those implements of deadly force at home. I’m not talking about turning into a quivering apologetic mold of jello, but simply addressing him directly and calmly with the words “My apologies. My son and I are just going to finish checking out and be on our way.” With that simple statement you acknowledge him as alpha, issue a compliant response and turn control of the situation over to him to allow you to leave. Of course you and I know that you can actually retake control the situation at a moment’s notice by the presentation of force but this way he gets to save face within his group and his “out” is easy – he simply lets you leave.

All these ideas of “guarding the culture” are fine and I admire the thought and idea of it but your first and foremost duty to your family is their physical safety and well being. You were being a good parent when you attempted to limit your son’s exposure to unacceptable language but you did so by pressuring strangers modify their behavior to suit your acceptance and ultimately pulled your son into a situation with you that placed his well being at risk.

You must have explored all the “what if’s” by now and certainly one of the worst is “what if all of them were packing?” But if none of them were armed and you did have to use deadly force I bet more than a dollar that you wouldn’t be sleeping in your own bed that night regardless of how correct TAM’s technical assessment is on how the laws apply to the situation. Your son witnessing a shooting point blank and having his dad hauled away for it is likely to set your family up for some serious counseling time at the least.

As for the discussion of “guarding the culture” (I really like that term as you can tell), I have likely done my share of it. I have “reminded” strangers about trash they forgot to pick up, to please hold phone conversations outside during movies etc., etc., but I have never corrected anyone for their use of language. The problem I have with that is it is objective as what you or I believe is profane. I grew up in the inner north side of Houston and certainly the micro culture there supports a more colorful flavor of the English language than does the Woodlands where I now reside. The idea of “guarding the culture” is a noble one but it can be very objective in nature and likely deserves its own thread.

dewayneward, the best part of the experience is that you didn’t threaten or use deadly force and absolutely no one got injured and that alone constitutes a “win”. It is great of you to post it up here for us to dissect to pieces and to be honest I can only offer up the post-game analysis. I apologize if it seems I am judging you harshly especially since I can’t guarantee that I would have acted any better or worse in realtime. I did make a promise to myself when I began carrying that I would AT ALL COSTS avoid escalation of any verbal altercation, or road rage type situation to the point of using deadly force. I have lived for 50 years without needing to rely on the use of a handgun to solve these types of altercations and I can easily do another 50. That is not why I carry.

Be safe!

Excellent analysis.

[RPB]

I honestly believe this is an exceptionally good thread.

I could not agree more.
Elmo

Ditto, esxmarkc's alpha male observations are interesting, reminds me of the P-A-C Parent/Adult/Child psychology too. I mean "please act like an adult" never worked on my 15-year old niece to get her to act less childish. I have to leave Parent mode, enter adult mode myself, to get another to act as an adult. (Not being critical, just self reflective here and thinking of how I can interact better)

[kahrfreak]

I did answer that question earlier in these posts :-) I wouldnt have done anything differently.

I have had some time to reflect on the event (and appreciate TAM's and a few others responses) and I can say now that they were actually out looking for trouble.

I had actually gotten into the self checkout line and as I was checking things out is when the event unfolded. I latered realized something, none of them were actually buying anything....which leads me to the conclusion that they were out to cause problems.

May I make a friendly suggestion? For the safety of you, your loved ones, and those around you please leave your firearms at home until you figure out the nuances of concealed carry, such as knowing how to avoid (or back down) from trouble before you're sucked into a confrontation.

I'm not a psychologist/psychiatrist, but it certainly appears to me that you are in denial. The consensus on this thread is crystal clear: You escalated the issue, the refused to de-escalate as you tried to prove your point with these individuals. Several people (including myself) have given you many good options as to what you should have done, but you refuse to listen.

I am glad that there are some that will be able to benefit from this experience. I will say that I am a little surprised at some of the responses , but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Yes, they are. But you ignore the opinion of the group as a whole at your own peril, and threaten the lives of those around you by your refusal to listen to those who know. (I don't consider myself an expert by any stretch. But there are several here whom I consider to be experts and who have responded to your request for clarification. I'm at a loss as to why you'd ask for opinions, and then simply ignore them.)

[Oldgringo]

This is gittin' good.

[b322da]

Couldn't agree more. In my initial reading of the OP a few days back, it seemed like it was a contest of sorts.

To the OP, how you have handled the situation if you had known that you did not have a weapon, other than your words?

I did answer that question earlier in these posts :-) I wouldnt have done anything differently....

I will say that I am a little surprised at some of the responses, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

I have been privately asked if my earlier post meant that I agreed with the OP. Not at all. My earlier post complimented the thread, not the OP. I would not want others to have the misapprehension my friend had. I had intentionally avoided taking a position on the various sides shown by the thread to avoid offending someone. I did this perhaps too subtly, which is a too-common failing on my part.

For example, the OP later observed (in the above quote) that he has now twice stated that he would not have done anything differently had he not been carrying a deadly weapon.

To look at his first post, which started this valuable exchange, would he have "put my hand at the ready" or "my hand went to my weapon"?

Not at all. It is more likely that all his mental turmoil put before us would never have occurred. It is also more likely that the mere thought of exercising deadly force, or displaying a deadly weapon as a deterrent, would not have entered his mind. I think it might have been more likely that he would have ended the incident early and reasonably.

While we may all be entitled to our own opinions, as stated by the OP, we must, particularly we, as armed men and women, be careful to recognize that strongly held opinions, though they may be wrong, often lead to equally wrong actions.

While I do not agree with what this exchange has prompted me to believe the OP's opinions might be, does not mean this is not a helpful exchange, which I am sure has caused many to think about some important things.

Elmo

[Carry-a-Kimber]

This is gittin' good.

[Oldgringo]

From another thread:

Re: PA: City to Pay for Violating OC Man's Rights
by Oldgringo » Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:06 pm

JNMAR wrote:
Sure it's a lot of money but I don't think $21K for legal fees from a Civil Rights case in Federal Court sounds out of reason to me. If you think that it does then you probably haven't retained the services of a top notch attorney lately.

It just re-enforces my intention and desire to keep myself out of court to the greatest extent possible. Which includes me keeping my mouth shut and my gun in it's perch at Walmart unless it's just absolutely unavoidable. Can you imagine what it would cost to defend yourself against criminal charges and then a Wrongful Death suit in a Civil Court?....oooops...wrong thread.

ABSOLUTELY!

This should be a sticky, not only for this particular topic but for the entire forum.

On the subject of "CONVERSATION", Mark Twain reputedly opined:

"Regardless of what people say they are talking about, the subject is money."

Alas, that subject never goes away.

[Excaliber]

G26ster, I appreciate your advice, and I'll probably agree that a jury would have issues with me if I drew my weapon....I just dont think that is right. This guy was 3 ft away from me. If he wanted to hit me, he could have before I drew my weapon. It gets into that "when can I draw". I dont want to shoot some blowhard, but I dont want to get hurt.

There's more than one way to skin a cat. The thinking process here is being limited in a way best described as "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." Deploying a concealed handgun is rarely the best or even an acceptable answer to most of the potential conflicts we encounter, and failure to employ other simpler and less confrontational options underlies many incidents that result in the revocation of someone's CHL.

Think about how things would have played out even if the law did provide justification for you to draw in this situation (which it clearly does not):

Here are the 2 most likely options your opponent would have picked after you had displayed your gun:

1. He continues the stare down, loudly asks you what you plan to do with that, and graphically explains to you that if you try to use it, he'll put it someplace that you'll find distinctly uncomfortable.

2. He yells, "Gun!! This crazy guy's got a gun! Somebody call 911!!" Without a doubt, someone will. He'll follow this up by dancing around as the offended party, screaming he wants to press charges, and will be the first to accost arriving officers and point you out as the suspect.

I don't see how either of these responses would have improved your tactical or legal situation. Either one would have left you with a drawn gun you couldn't possibly justify firing, and your antagonist with the clear upper hand.

Keeping in mind that the only fights you're guaranteed to win are the ones you don't engage in, I would suggest that a better course of action would have been to finish your business at the counter without engaging the disruptive parties and then proceed to the customer service counter to ask the manager to take action to intervene and / or remove them from the store. This course of action would have avoided the risk of conflict with you, along with its accompanying potential danger to your son, and would have made the issue the store manager's problem (which it should have been in the first place) rather than yours.

[JNMAR]

Excellent analysis and advice Excaliber, I don't see how anyone could argue with it.