encounter at wallyworld - calling all armchair QB's

[dewayneward]

Went to my local wallyworld to pic up a few things with my 9ry old. Was doing the self check out and a guy with 4 of his friends are cussing like crazy. I ask them to "please watch your language around my son" and continue checking my stuff out.

The guy (who my son said that he was saying that he was a marine...not the ones that I have met, but anyway), says "no I will not" and does the ole star down. I ask him to please act like an adult and go back to finishing checking out. He walks up to the cart and puts his hand on it, I get between my son and grab the other end of the cart and put my hand at the ready.

After a few tense moments he releases and just stands there.

I finish the transaction (even had the associate come over to verify my credit card/license).. get my son and go. I am keeping watch on them on the way out, making sure that he and his friends dont decide to try and do something in the parking lot.

My adrenilin is still going, but everything happened just like I have read, EVERYTHING slows down, you have to fight the tunnel vision and you become aware of your surroundings. I went to my training, my hand went to my weapon and scanned everything...keeping my son behind me (thankfully, we have had the talk and he realized what he was suppose to do).

To armchair this thing, the only thing I could have done differently would have been to let those people use potty mouth around my child and just "lived with it". I dont like that answer, but realize the responsibility that I carry with me.

I keep thinking that had the guy (or his friends) got more aggressive with the cart, I would be explaining my half of why I had to stop them to a police officer right now. I am of course thinking of all the what if's.....

Something that I have learned....people that dont carry condition 0 (and I'll argue 1) need to leave their gun at home. They have no idea how quick the threat can be "on top of you". I'll continue to carry 24/7 "even for that quick trip up to wallyworld where nothing happens", and I will be rereading texas laws for defense in these situations. Everything else aside, I wonder the legalities of everything. I felt that my life and my child's life was in danger. I am wondering legally, where thsi would have gone had I pulled my gun on him when the cart thing began. And obviously had the cart thing got worse, the legalities for stopping the guy and or his friends (whethere there was one or many assailants).

So, advice is welcomed. I can see some of the posters making comments about not saying anything while they cussed like crazy.

[jamisjockey]

I wouldn't have done much different. Unfortunately, politeness is a lost art anymore. As an adult, I don't care what you say around me. But swearing around my children is uncalled for.

Last year I was at a gas station with my kids. I had gotten them out of the truck while I filled up, we were going to go inside for Icees. Four youths at the vacum with some very dirty rap music blaring. I walked up and asked them to turn it down, because my kids could hear the language. I got a "sure" and a "yes sir". They didn't turn it down but bumped the player to a song that wasn't offensive.
The encounter stood out because while I wasn't looking for a fight, I wasn't going to tolerate the level of obsceninty being blared out in the presence of my children. It wasn't the reaction I expected.

My standard for armed response is much lower when my children are involved than myself or another adult. Getting between him and your child was the right call.
I would have probably ordered him to back off. 4 to 1 is clear disparity of force, as well as you being accompanied by your child.

As for the exit from the store, an option would be to tell the store manager that the other customer made threatening gestures (grabbing your cart) and used obscene language towards you, and that you need store security to escort you to your car.

By the way, under Texas Penal Code for disorderly conduct

Sec. 42.01. DISORDERLY CONDUCT. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly:

(1) uses abusive, indecent, profane, or vulgar language in a public place, and the language by its very utterance tends to incite an immediate breach of the peace;

(2) makes an offensive gesture or display in a public place, and the gesture or display tends to incite an immediate breach of the peace;

Depending on the language, contacting the police might have been in order. It could have given you a better leg to stand on if you were forced into a position to defend yourself.

By the way, if he really was a Marine, he's disgracing the title wtih that sort of public display.

[G26ster]

I realize you want to protect your self and your child, and you had every right to politely ask the cussing to stop, but I'd review in your mind for a while your threshold for drawing your weapon. Had you drawn your weapon just because of a stare and a hand on your cart, and I was on your jury, I would have to say I would probably not be voting in your favor. Now had you or your child been physically been attacked by one or more of these men, that's a whole other story. And, I have to ask, what did you do to "diffuse" this potential threat? When you say, "put my hand at the ready," do you mean you made it obvious that you were armed? Did you put your hand in a position that a reasonable person would believe you were about to draw a weapon. if so, I'd say you not only made no attempt to diffuse the situation, you escalated the potential for violence.

You and I know that having a CHL is a great responsibility, and our weapons should only be used as last resort. I'm not sure you, and others, will agree with anything I said, but you did ask for armchair QB's, so this is just MHO.

[Beiruty]

First, desclation and second calling 911 is a good idea

[dewayneward]

thanks for the responces. My "diffusion" was not to enter into anymore discussion with this person and ignore him. I wasnt going to get into a "stare down" with this guy as that would be a "stare down" scenario fuled by testosterone. My objective was met in that he stopped cussing.

I'd have to ask you, the next time you are at a store that has shopping carts, to see the distance between you and someone that is on the other end of the cart. It was "my" cart at the time and it was a barrier between me and him. Had the cart not have been there, I dont really have any doubts that he would have got up "in my space".

You know that it takes less than a few seconds for someone to get 21 ft...this guy was much closer and was upset. This is an area that I have to disagree with the law on...its almost like you have to be attacked FIRST before you can defend yourself...and then the law prohibits you from doing something AFTER the attack happens. Its like you need to respond WHILe you are being attacked or something.


G26ster, I appreciate your advice, and I'll probably agree that a jury would have issues with me if I drew my weapon....I just dont think that is right. This guy was 3 ft away from me. If he wanted to hit me, he could have before I drew my weapon. It gets into that "when can I draw". I dont want to shoot some blowhard, but I dont want to get hurt.

As far as calling 911, I dont see that happening during something like this. You are standing there with some guy and you really think you'll be able to call 911....do you think that that will deescalate the situation?

[Carry-a-Kimber]

I'm probaly not going to be the most popular guy around for saying this but.......I would have to say he has as much right to practice his 1st Amendment as you have to practice your 2nd Amendment. I don't use profanity around the kids, in public, or that much in general; however, it is not my job to tell someone else the type of language they can use in public. If a friend or family member chooses to use that type of language in my house around my kids, I would tell them not to IN MY HOUSE. Otherwise, I would take it as an opportunity to teach my child that that type of language is reserved for adults and not appropriate for children. I don't think putting your hand on your piece was out of line given the confrentation, if it had escalated you need every second to count and having your hand at the ready would increase your odds if things went South.

[MoJo]

I think you did the right thing. You protected you son and kept out of a deadly force confrontation. Loud tough guys like that usually aren't all that tough - - - it's the quiet ones you've got to look out for. Most Marines I know tend to be quiet.

[dewayneward]

I'm probaly not going to be the most popular guy around for saying this but.......I would have to say he has as much right to practice his 1st Amendment as you have to practice your 2nd Amendment. I don't use profanity around the kids, in public, or that much in general; however, it is not my job to tell someone else the type of language they can use in public. If a friend or family member chooses to use that type of language in my house around my kids, I would tell them not to IN MY HOUSE. Otherwise, I would take it as an opportunity to teach my child that that type of language is reserved for adults and not appropriate for children. I don't think putting your hand on your piece was out of line given the confrentation, if it had escalated you need every second to count and having your hand at the ready would increase your odds if things went South.

Actualy, what he said was not a right for 1st amendment. I appreciate the other stuff you write here, but the statement w/1st amendment is wrong. Logically, if that were the case, then he would not be in violation of the penal code that an earlier poster made. Plus, it isnt a 1st amendment thing to go into a movie theatre and yell fire.

I do wholeheartedly agree with where I put my hand during it. I really think that it could have gone south real quick. Thankfully, he decided not do to anything with the cart situation.

[OldSchool]

Sounds as if you handled it well. More and more people like that around (wannabe bullies). I never tolerated cussing around my family, ever.

Something that I have learned....people that dont carry condition 0 (and I'll argue 1) need to leave their gun at home.

OK, if you say so. I don't like condition 0, so I guess I'll leave it at home from now on.

[OldSchool]

I'm probaly not going to be the most popular guy around for saying this but.......I would have to say he has as much right to practice his 1st Amendment as you have to practice your 2nd Amendment. I don't use profanity around the kids, in public, or that much in general; however, it is not my job to tell someone else the type of language they can use in public. If a friend or family member chooses to use that type of language in my house around my kids, I would tell them not to IN MY HOUSE. Otherwise, I would take it as an opportunity to teach my child that that type of language is reserved for adults and not appropriate for children. I don't think putting your hand on your piece was out of line given the confrentation, if it had escalated you need every second to count and having your hand at the ready would increase your odds if things went South.

You have a point about the language. However, bad language is not indicative of 1A rights, but rather is indicative of someone who is intent on confrontation and having to prove his "manhood."

By the way, the Marines go out of their way to teach quality of character; I've seen too many who say they are -- but their actions prove otherwise.

[jamisjockey]

I'm probaly not going to be the most popular guy around for saying this but.......I would have to say he has as much right to practice his 1st Amendment as you have to practice your 2nd Amendment. I don't use profanity around the kids, in public, or that much in general; however, it is not my job to tell someone else the type of language they can use in public. If a friend or family member chooses to use that type of language in my house around my kids, I would tell them not to IN MY HOUSE. Otherwise, I would take it as an opportunity to teach my child that that type of language is reserved for adults and not appropriate for children. I don't think putting your hand on your piece was out of line given the confrentation, if it had escalated you need every second to count and having your hand at the ready would increase your odds if things went South.

Refer to the section of TPC I posted. The 1A probably doesn't apply in this scenerio.

[dewayneward]

well im his 9 in a half quarter son.i think dad did the good thing.the man was vary fat lol. the man had four friends we were in the slide and check line.and this man looked at my dads new shaver.i bet if he said this to a marine he would be mad :mad.i have seen pg 13 movies but wow that dude was saying R rated movies.he was trying to make himself look like he was the center of atenchen.he said im a marine and when im not killing enyone im shaving my friends face. by the way my grandpa was in the navy .my dad said he was just thinking about it but he stared at the shaver so he wanted to start something. but first i went to my favorite card game pokemon and this was before it startid but thats when i got thare thats what it was.i had a vison this didnt happened though i thout the dude was gonna smash my dads face into the cart.good thing he didnt . and whene he said the f bomb dad told him not to use it.and gave him the stare.i thout it would end like this .but. when we finished it checking out we walked to our car and we drove to our house safely being shure to not tell daniel my little brother.and thares my opinyon. thank you for reading


My oldest son decided to weigh in on the situation :-)

I was thinking up till a comment that my son made that these guys were just talking smack and then I made a big deal about it. My son told me that the ringleader had looked into my cart and was making fun of my new shaver. In retrospect, I am now more inclined to think that they were wanting to start something.

Well, glad it ended well. I do appreaciate everyone's comments. I think we can all agree, carry 24/7 and be ready ALL THE TIME!!!

[dewayneward]

Sounds as if you handled it well. More and more people like that around (wannabe bullies). I never tolerated cussing around my family, ever.

Something that I have learned....people that dont carry condition 0 (and I'll argue 1) need to leave their gun at home.

OK, if you say so. I don't like condition 0, so I guess I'll leave it at home from now on.

hi old school. When you carry, what condition do you "roll" in? I dont make my "condition 0 or arguably 1" comment lightly. But, in a self defense scenario, do you think that you would be able to (assuming condition 2 here, timelines extend as you move up to 3 and 4, etc.) rack the slide (assuming a semi auto).

This scenario really has shown me that 0 is the only way to go. The only reason I can think of in carrying in any other condition is that you dont trust the gun to keep from AD'ing. I use to be the same way, like the gun was going to go off in my hand or something, but over time, I got to the point. In today's incident, I was condition 0, as usual, and with how close the guy and his friends were, I wouldnt have had time to do anything else, including flipping off the safety.

There are a number of videos out there, but it is a repeated fact that it takes a normal person only a few seconds to get to you from 21 ft away. This guy was 3 ft. Of course you have to do what is right in your mind and what you feel comfortable with, but a gun that isnt able to immediately stop a threat is useless (unless it scares the person). Dont believe me, try to do a test on how long it takes to draw and present to a threat coming at you that wants to do damage. THEN (after you discover the timing isnt even close) compound that by stress of the encounter, tunnel vision , making sure your child is safe, etc.

[jamisjockey]

FWIW, IMHO, carrying a gun that has a manual safety in condition 0 is irresponsible.
Condition Four: Chamber empty, no magazine, hammer down.
Condition Three: Chamber empty, full magazine in place, hammer down.
Condition Two: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer down.
Condition One: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety on.
Condition Zero: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety off.

[Oldgringo]

dewayneward wrote:

I really think that it could have gone south real quick.

You are correct! I don't recall ever having heard of anyone being cussed to death. OTOH, drawing your gun under the situation described would have shown us how far south it would eventually go. What was that guy's name in the Costco in Las Vegas?

Your intentions were noble but....