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A friend of mine, and a SWAT cop and instructor, was recently off duty having a late night munchies breakfast at a waffle house and the place was nearly full. Two criminals entered the place armed with handguns and immediately fired a round into the floor. (an AD maybe?)

The pointed the guns at the customers and employees and robbed the place, employees and customers included.

My friend was only armed with a Kel Tek .380. He is very capable of quick, decisive and lethal action, I have seen him move. He has been in shootings, shootouts and many SWAT raids. He trains more than the average guy.

Because of the number of people in the place, the separation of the bad guys and the small gun he carried along with no extra ammo, he decided to only engage if the became violent. Fortunately it did not, and when the left, he identified himself as a cop, told the manager to call 911 and pursued the robbers on foot.

He was a good distance behind to start, and lost them after a short foot chase.

His lessons; for him, the .380 is restricted to backup and deep concealment carry. He will always carry a more potent handgun. He will always carry at least one extra mag.

He believes, as do I, that his decision to not engage was correct. It would have been tactically bad to engage, and there was too great a chance of other customers being hurt/killed. If they asked for wallets, he would have engaged as his badge and ID were inside.

He is really ticked off over having to allow that to happen, but we both know it was correct.

There have been several threads here about being in a place that is held up and what would you do. Well, now you know what a seasoned, well trained and motivated SWAT cop would do.

Be safe boys and girls.

The best thing anyone can do in such a situation is be the best possible witness they can. Kudos to your policeman friend.

Nice Post.

I have often wondered what I would do in a situation like that because 99% of the time there are always people around me. I too agree that your friend did the right thing. I would like to think that I would have done the same however I hope to never be in that situation.

DP

txinvestigator wrote:He is really ticked off over having to allow that to happen, but we both know it was correct.

There have been several threads here about being in a place that is held up and what would you do. Well, now you know what a seasoned, well trained and motivated SWAT cop would do.

Sound to me he is really frustrated that he was not better armed. Would he have done more if he had a larger caliber with and extra mag or two?

None the less I comened him for useng his head first.

I just had Waffle House for the first time while in Galveston, and the the biggest impression I have about the layout of the place is how cramped certain areas are, especially near the entrance/exit. The bar/counter seating and register is directly across and to the left of the doorway, creating a long, somewhat narrow aisle leading to the rest of the restaurant. It would be very easy to be trapped in there with no good escape route and lots of people between you and a robber. It seemed like a really bad place to be if someone came in and started shooting. You wouldn't be able to get a clear shot, and everyone is lined up like ducks in the rows of bar stools and booths. I'm not sure if this is the way all Waffle Houses are laid out, but it seems like the few I have gone by have a similar setup.

TXI,

Thanks for posting that. Good food for thought, and I'm glad everyone got out of it physically unharmed.

Wildscar wrote:

txinvestigator wrote:He is really ticked off over having to allow that to happen, but we both know it was correct.

There have been several threads here about being in a place that is held up and what would you do. Well, now you know what a seasoned, well trained and motivated SWAT cop would do.

Sound to me he is really frustrated that he was not better armed. Would he have done more if he had a larger caliber with and extra mag or two?

Even with a .45 and extra mags, he believes it was best not to engage unless they became violent. That is just a hard pill for a guy like him to swallow.

Sounds like a mature and well trained officer....it is difficult to think clearly under that much stress.....no matter the amount of training (IMHO).

I hope they got caught and rot in jail.

Thanks for the reminder that a gun is not nearly as powerful a weapon as the one between our ears.

txinvestigator wrote:Two criminals entered the place armed with handguns and immediately fired a round into the floor. (an AD maybe?)
...

he decided to only engage if the became violent.

I agree that he made all the right choices under the circumstances. However, discharging a weapon in a crowded restaurant isn't violent? My thoughts are that if he could AD/ND at the floor, he could do it while pointing at his victims.

Circumstances like these make me wonder - were there any CHL holders present? Aren't there ever any CHL holders in situations like this? are the percentages that low? Maybe I don't read enough news, but it's always off-duty cops.
Also, what would have happened if a CHL was there and acted before the cop did? Would they easily have recognized each other as 'good guys'? this has always been one of my worries and don't hear many people discuss it.

I can only hope I would make the same wise decisions this cop made.

The walls in the Waffle House tend to be pretty thin, and I certainly wouldn't want to be in a gunfight with only a Kel-tec .380...

So I can see why he did what he did.

But I will say that he had plenty of legal justification to act, and I'm not sure I'd wait till they started shooting people or pointing a gun at me or my family to act.

Of course every situation is different, but everybody should be aware that there is a point where it becomes too late to act.

Suarez's experience with force-on-force suggests that sometime during the initial takeover is the best time to act. Before the BG's have control over the situation/people. If you're tied up on the floor in the back room, it's too late.

TXI good post.

I think it is always good to hear about "event" like this and as to what was going through the LEO's mind. Situation awareness is one the hardest thing to train (from some of my FD experience in the past, VERY different type of situation).

I think it would be safe to say that everyone on this board agrees with his decision to not engage and can only wish that we can be as professional as he was if in that situation.

Brian

If he would have be better armed he still did right. Every waffle house I have been in there is no telling what the back stop would be especially when they are full. It takes more courage to do nothing than to act and put others lives in danger especially with his training. I also agree

By the way SWAT has always been "Sit Wait And Talk."

txinvestigator wrote:

Wildscar wrote:

txinvestigator wrote:He is really ticked off over having to allow that to happen, but we both know it was correct.

There have been several threads here about being in a place that is held up and what would you do. Well, now you know what a seasoned, well trained and motivated SWAT cop would do.

Sound to me he is really frustrated that he was not better armed. Would he have done more if he had a larger caliber with and extra mag or two?

Even with a .45 and extra mags, he believes it was best not to engage unless they became violent. That is just a hard pill for a guy like him to swallow.

That's kind of of what I was getting at. Some times discretion is the better part of valor they say. But yeah that would frustrate the heck out of me to sit there and watch it happen.

He is really ticked off over having to allow that to happen,

Having to stand by and watch bad guys do bad things makes most good guys/gals mad. Not being able to do anything to stop it can really eat at you. Feeling underarmed is sinking feeling all to itself.

Glad he and the others came out safe.

Dan

Thanks for sharing. I'm glad that nobody was injured.