Optics opinions

[FL450]

I am about to start my first AR build as well as my first AR while my wife and kids are doing a girls New York Trip.
I am starting to research red dots and scopes. Leaning toward red dots and looking for opinions from the members of the finest forum in the country. So far my head is swimming with information. Following are some details to help narrow down the choices.
Price range 200-500 dollars. I would rather cry once and buy once. I don't want to waste 200 dollars but if I can get an acceptable scope for 200 I could budget for that. If I am going to not be happy for a year or so with a 200 dollar scope or regret it as soon as I used a 500 dollar scope then I will save a little longer and purchase once.
Use- 25-200 yards range use and hogs.
Pro's and Con's of scopes vs red dots and holographic sites.
Do I need 3X for red dot?
I do wear glasses and have a stigmatism which I have heard can affect red dot crispness
Also if you have any preferred retailers let me know.
I have been researching on AR15.com, M4Carbine, Optix planet but I will only post questions on this board because this board doesn't tolerate childishness.
Any think I haven't thought of?

[gigag04]

Range? Intended use?

Absent info I always recommend the Aimpoint micro. You can get an H-1 if you won't be running NODs.

IMO it offers the best possible value in terms of durability, weight, size, reticle options (2 or 4 MOA), cost, combat proven, and battery life.

Inside 200 a magnifier is nice but absolutely not needed.

I also recommend a taller mount that will get you a lower third cowitness for a cleaner sight picture.

[The Annoyed Man]

I am about to start my first AR build as well as my first AR while my wife and kids are doing a girls New York Trip.
I am starting to research red dots and scopes. Leaning toward red dots and looking for opinions from the members of the finest forum in the country. So far my head is swimming with information. Following are some details to help narrow down the choices.
Price range 200-500 dollars. I would rather cry once and buy once. I don't want to waste 200 dollars but if I can get an acceptable scope for 200 I could budget for that. If I am going to not be happy for a year or so with a 200 dollar scope or regret it as soon as I used a 500 dollar scope then I will save a little longer and purchase once.
Use- 25-200 yards range use and hogs.
Pro's and Con's of scopes vs red dots and holographic sites.
Do I need 3X for red dot?
I do wear glasses and have a stigmatism which I have heard can affect red dot crispness
Also if you have any preferred retailers let me know.
I have been researching on AR15.com, M4Carbine, Optix planet but I will only post questions on this board because this board doesn't tolerate childishness.
Any think I haven't thought of?

I would probably go with a 1-4x with an illuminated reticle of some kind. If you go for a red dot, you'll eventually want a magnifier, and that's another chunk of change. My EOTech sight was something like $429, but the EOTech brand 3X magnifier with a A.R.M.S. flip to side mount was another $499 (on E-bay). So the total, sales tax included, was nearly $900. You can get a pretty good 1-4X variable power scope for well under $500.

Examples:

• Nikon M223 1-4x30, $229.95 (reticle NOT illuminated): http://swfa.com/Nikon-1-4x20-M223-Rifle ... 45743.aspx
• Leupold VX-R Firedot 1.25-4x20, $429.95 (reticle illuminated): http://swfa.com/Leupold-125-4x20-VX-R-3 ... 48030.aspx
• Leupold VX-R Firedot Hog 1.25-4x20, $479.95 (reticle illuminated, BDC reticle): http://swfa.com/Leupold-125-4x20-VX-R-H ... 48032.aspx
• Leupold VX-R Firedot Patrol 1.25-4x20, $579.95 (reticle illuminated, tactical milling reticle): http://swfa.com/Leupold-125-4x20-VX-R-P ... 49444.aspx (This one is $100 more than the next most expensive one, but it has a better reticle for tactical use.)
• Burris MTAC 1-4x24, includes S.S.A.L.T. scope mount, $409.05 (reticle is an illuminated ballistic plex which is excellent....I have one on another Burris optic): http://swfa.com/Burris-1-4x24-MTAC-30mm ... 61993.aspx
• Burris MTAC 1-4x24 (same as above), includes P.E.P.R. mount, AND includes FastFire II red dot, $598.95: http://swfa.com/Burris-1-4x24-MTAC-30mm ... 53420.aspx
• Burris 1-4x24 Fullfield TAC 30, $298.95 (reticle is same as the two above items): http://swfa.com/Burris-Fullfield-TAC-30 ... C1692.aspx
• Same as above, plus P.E.P.R. mount AND FastFire II red dot sight, $498.95: http://swfa.com/Burris-1-4x24-Fullfield ... 48172.aspx
• Bushnell 1-4x24 AR Optic, $227.95 (illuminated BTR-1 reticle, First Focal Plane—a very good thing): http://swfa.com/Bushnell-1-4x24-AR-Opti ... 61352.aspx
• Same as above PLUS S.S.A.L.T. mount kit, $259.95: http://swfa.com/Bushnell-1-4x24-AR-Opti ... 61988.aspx
• Leatherwood 1-4x24 CMR scope PLUS S.S.A.L.T. mount kit, $329.95 (illuminated milling reticle): http://swfa.com/Leatherwood-1-4x24-CMR- ... 47565.aspx
• Millett 1-4x24 DMS scope PLUS S.S.A.L.T. mount kit, $249.95 (illuminated "donut" with center dot): http://swfa.com/Millett-1-4x24-DMS-SWFA ... 42148.aspx

These are all sold at SWFA, but you can find some of them at other outlets too, and prices may vary slightly. I list them all here just to give you sense of all the different choices you have with a variable power scope, with prices well below your benchmark, to a little bit over it. All of these are good decent scopes.

As far as reflex optics like the EOTech, they have the advantage of nearly eliminating parallax. Parallax has a long-winded technical explanation, but simplified, it means that even if your eye does not have the red dot absolutely centered in the optic, the red dot is still pointing to where the bullet is going to go. This has the advantage of making target acquisition really fast. On the other hand, you don't have magnification in most of them. The only two I have any experience with are the EOTech, and the AIMPoint Micro H1. both are very nice. The Micro H1 weighs quite a bit less. Both are generally in the $500-$600 range.

Lastly, you might consider some kind of ACOG. The obvious one is the Trijicon ACOG. Trijicon glass is absolutely amazingly clear. OTH, they are really pricey. An alternative that is within more pedestrian budgets are the Burris 332AR and 536AR. The former is a 3X32mm fixed power optic, and the latter is a 5x36mm fixed power optic. Otherwise, they are identical. They have the same reticle as the Burris variable power scopes in the above list, but it can be displayed in either red or green with 5 brightness settings. In the off position, the reticle is plain black. They are $348.95 and $398.5 respectively. Here is a link to the 536AR: http://swfa.com/Burris-5x36-AR-536-Tact ... 53472.aspx. This is the one that I have on my AR carbine. It isn't perfect, but I like it a lot.

If I could afford it, I would look at one of the Mark 8 Leupolds, but I don't have $4,000.00.

....edited to fix URL for Millet scope, per Mojo's observation....

[MoJo]

A 1-4 scope with illuminated reticule is a great optic for an AR. I have the Millet DMS 1-4. It is a great scope, and I haven't had any problems with it.

There is a tendency among new AR owners to put everything but the kitchen sink on their rifles many of the gizmos add little but weight to the gun. I encourage all new AR owners to think and rethink the purchase of any accessory.

Good luck on your build and enjoy your new gun.

edit: TAM put the wrong URL for the Millet scope here's the correct URL. http://swfa.com/Millett-1-4x24-DMS-SWFA ... 42148.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Ericstac]

OP, you are right next to primary arms. They have some nice options in their own brand and they sell other major names as well. Great people. You should go check them out and physically look at the options.

[maverick2076]

^
+1 for Primary Arms. Good guys with good prices. Their PA branded scopes are a huge value for the money. Their magnifiers are awesome as well. Their PA branded red dots are good, although they do not have the durability of the major players.

If you are looking at a red dot, the Aimpoint PRO is probably the best deal around for your price range. 2MOA dot, NVG capable, ridiculous battery life measured in years, Aimpoint durability, and ti comes with a pretty good mount. You can easily find the PRO for $400. EoTech is another option, especially if you prefer their reticle. IF you go the Eotech route, absolutely shop at Primary Arms. Their Eotechs all come with a free Primary Arms magnifier and mount. As I said above, that magnifier is awesome. I could not tell a difference, side by side, between it and the EOtech magnifier.

[cubbyjg]

I agree with what TAM has suggested. Since you stated your intended use will be for range and hogs, a 1-4X scope will be great.

[FL450]

A big thanks to all that have replied so far, I have found learning optics lingo and choosing a scope or red dot to be more difficult than all the other decisions for the rest of my build.
Gigag- I anticipate at least at the moment this will be a range gun (25-200 Yd. and hogs. I value your opinions and always read your AR post.

TAM- Thanks for taking the time to post specific scopes and links. along with your explanations and insights. Trying to decide where to compromise and where I don't want to is difficult in this price range. Narrowing down brands is a big help too.

Ericstac and Maveric2076- Thanks for bringing to my attention the local guy in my own back yard. I also stumbled upon The Scope Smith (I45/Dixie Farm) who will sell 10% below internet prices to make up for charging tax.

And finally Cubbyjg- Thanks for your input. Scope vs Red dot.

A few more questions- Does any one run a red dot on top of a scope?
Is a first focal plane reticle important and can you get a decent one in the 400 and below priced 1X4 scopes?
Gigag mentioned Cowitness- Can any one chime in and expand on a definition and what this means to me.

[nightmare69]

Eotech, its the optic used to take out Osama Bin Laden.

[maverick2076]

You can run a red dot and scope combo. Leupold makes the HAMR, which is pretty awesome, and their are offset mounts for micro reflex and red dots you can use. Its expensive, though. A cheaper option is to run a scope and offset iron sights for your close shots.

[The Annoyed Man]

You can run a red dot and scope combo. Leupold makes the HAMR, which is pretty awesome, and their are offset mounts for micro reflex and red dots you can use. Its expensive, though. A cheaper option is to run a scope and offset iron sights for your close shots.

Burris has a scope/red dot combo. Two of the links I posted above are exactly that. Here's the MTAC with the FastFire red dot attached: http://burrisoptics.com/mtac1x4x.html—$498.95 at SWFA, P.E.P.R. Mount included.


Here's the Fullfield TAC30 with the FastFire red dot on top of it: http://burrisoptics.com/fftac30.html—$598.95 at SWFA, P.E.P.R. Mount included.


You can get a whole lot more scope than these, that I've listed, but for a whole lot more money. As a general thing, with a precision rifle, particularly a precision bolt action, I advise people to not cheap out on optics. Be prepared to spend up to and beyond the price of the rifle if necessary, but a rule of thumb I try to follow is to spend between half the value of the rifle to the full value of the rifle on an optic. So for a $400 gun, be prepared to spend between $200 and $400 on the optic. For a $2,000 gun, be prepared to spend between $1,000 and $2,000 for the optic. That's just a rule of thumb. My AR10 is a $3,000 rifle. The scope I've mounted on it is a $1,500.00 scope.

But most AR15s cost considerably less than that, and unless it is in a long heavy barreled varmint configuration, you don't really need to mount a $1,400 Trijicon ACOG on a $800 Bushmaster carbine. But a $400-$500 scope or reflex sight would be perfectly appropriate for that. That's why I tell people who are looking for optics for an AR Carbine to look in the price range that I listed above with all those selections from SWFA.

And age has a LOT to do with it. I would have had no problem shooting at 200 yards with no magnification 10 or 15 years ago. But my eyesight has deteriorated enough now that outside of CQB distances, magnification is a must for me.

[Pawpaw]

Does any one run a red dot on top of a scope?

I do, but the cost of a Trijicon TA01 and Trijicon RM04 is well above your stated limit.

What would you like to know?

[FL450]

Sorry TAM, so much going on today I forgot you did post the combo's.
To further refine my question are these combo's ok or would anyone recommend spending more money on a better quality optic and add the other later or are these combos decent units.

[w squared]

Optics for black rifles is "the thing" these days. Some of the other posters here have provided some good options, so I'll avoid regurgitating the info that they've already given you. What I will say is this:

IF you want a top-tier optic for that budget, you'll be able to get a modest offering from one of the first-rate non-magnified optic manufacturers. What I mean by that is that you can pick up a "red dot" type sight from Aimpoint, Eotech, or Trijicon inside that budget if you shop around and buy a "plain-jane" model. Inside 100 yards, that plain-jane will be the proverbial bee's knees - and out to 200 yards, it'll do everything that you really need it to.

If you want some magnification, I'd suggest a Bushnell Elite, Nikon, Leupold, or Millet 1X to 4X. By the way, the prices on the Leupolds that The Annoyed Man posted links to are a GREAT deal. I would normally expect to pay +/-$800 for a 1-4X of that sort of quality (I paid $700 for the Kahles 1-4X that I have on my M14, and while the glass in the Kahles MAY be a little bit better, it doesn't have all of the whizzy-bangy stuff that the leupolds do).

The other thing that I'll throw out there is don't cheap out on rings. The best AR-15 scope mount that I've ever used is from LaRue Tactical. It was well over $100...and worth every penny. It is without a doubt the most thoughtfully engineered and bombproof optics mount I have ever seen.

And by the way....you will indeed get what you pay for with optics. I have three rifles that cost less than the glass that they wear. Would you like to hazard a guess as to which three rifles I enjoy shooting the most?

[gigag04]

1-4x optics are nice but get heavy when doing dynamic shooting/training. I still have a 1-3 on my patrol rifle but the weight really bugs me. It's a trade-off I make. The 1-4x would be good for your use, but why not get a 3x9 just to see where you find yourself dialing in the most? I find most recreational enjoy a bit stronger glass to shoot really tight groups at distance or hit a small lethal area on a pig. TAMs post is solid though if you go that route. He's probably procured more glass than I have.