TexasCHLforum.com

Can you shoot someone in the back that turns there back to you after robbing you at gun point? My concern would be that after the person robbing you at gun robs you and takes your wallet and walks away, he thinks in his mind " hey, I just left a witness alive to testify agianst me in the court of law " and after taking 4-6 steps after robbing you, turns around to kill you to eliminate a witness. What does TX law statutes say concening shooting the thug in the back after holding you at gun point and you shoot him in the back in fear that he may turn around with second thoughts to finish the job.?

Said law does not say anything about shooting in the back, you are taking your chances with a Jury, most likely you would convicted of murder. Someone would post the pharmacist video, but that is a bit different scenario.

However, since he was armed, I am shooting!

Very gray area in the law. Their back being turned to you shows they are no longer agressing you, therefore not a threat. How ever they do have your property and you can protect your property. Can very easliy go either way. Me personally, my wallet is not worth taking a life, regardless of the law. They things you would be deling with the rest of your life mentally are not worth it.

There are many, many cases of an armed BG running away, and then turning and shooting back while fleeing. Or even simply tossing a shot back over their shoulder while running away.

As long as they are within shooting distance and are armed, they remain a threat and should be dealt with as such.

Another thing about shooting someone in the back, it is commonplace for a police officer -- for example -- to start shooting at someone who is facing them with a weapon. The BG turns to run away and gets shot in the back. Well, the turning to run happens quicker than the officer can react to stop shooting. That's an easy scenario to prove in court.

When they turn their back to you they may just be REALLY loading their gun, racking the slide, etc to turn around an pop you. If they have have robbed you at gunpoint and turned their back to you, I would start trying to back away while drawing and if they turned or failed to move on away I would shoot. The main thing is try to get that distance between you when they drop their guard.

Keith B wrote:When they turn their back to you they may just be REALLY loading their gun, racking the slide, etc to turn around an pop you. If they have have robbed you at gunpoint and turned their back to you, I would start trying to back away while drawing and if they turned or failed to move on away I would shoot. The main thing is try to get that distance between you when they drop their guard.

And it's not even a moral issue at that point; it's a matter of sound tactics. Unless you're an undercover police officer who believes that he should close the distance to effect an arrest or something, creating distance between you and the attacker should be a very high priority. My own reaction would be the same as Keith's—draw the gun while creating distance, and then firing if the BG suddenly turns back toward me. But the loss of whatever was in my wallet would have to be particularly ruinous to me to make me believe that shooting him in the back as he walked away would be worth it. That loss would have to outweigh the almost certain loss to me in legal defense fees, and it is pretty much certain that there is nothing in my wallet that is worth $50K or more......not to mention the possibility of incarceration.

Now, if he was stealing my dog, all bets are off.

Back up a couple steps. I would be afraid as soon as he robs me of my wallet at gunpoint, he would then shoot me. Or worse yet find my gun, get mad and shoot me with my own gun. How many would try to maybe toss him your wallet making sure it hits the ground then draw and fire as he picks it up?
I'm all the time running "what if" scenarios through my head.

The advise to to put distance between you and the assailant is solid. Once the BG turns and moves away he is no longer a threat but, if he turns back or starts shooting over his shoulder then it's on. I think there is little in my wallet other than a debit card and a couple of credit cards and a small amount of cash that has any real value except to me.

If a man robs me with a weapon of any kind I see him as a threat as long as he is in sight so am going to defend myself until I feel safe

There was a case in FL of a man that got robbed and shot the man in the back as he turned and he was a NO BILL and yes I tried to look for a link but with that cafe shooting it’s hard to find

The Annoyed Man wrote:

Keith B wrote:When they turn their back to you they may just be REALLY loading their gun, racking the slide, etc to turn around an pop you. If they have have robbed you at gunpoint and turned their back to you, I would start trying to back away while drawing and if they turned or failed to move on away I would shoot. The main thing is try to get that distance between you when they drop their guard.

And it's not even a moral issue at that point; it's a matter of sound tactics. Unless you're an undercover police officer who believes that he should close the distance to effect an arrest or something, creating distance between you and the attacker should be a very high priority. My own reaction would be the same as Keith's—draw the gun while creating distance, and then firing if the BG suddenly turns back toward me.

Creating distance while engaging the BG was an exercise that we practiced and practiced during the "tactics" classes that I took. This tactic was also taught in the mini-classes at the TexasCHLForum day.

barstoolguru wrote:If a man robs me with a weapon of any kind I see him as a threat as long as he is in sight so am going to defend myself until I feel safe

There was a case in FL of a man that got robbed and shot the man in the back as he turned and he was a NO BILL and yes I tried to look for a link but with that cafe shooting it’s hard to find

So how far away then does he have to be for you to not back-shoot him? 100 feet? 45 feet? 10 feet? Across the street? Down the block? He's still in sight at all of those distances. Where do you draw the line? Because at some point it does become murder, whether or not you want to see it that way.

The correct response is, if at all possible: create space (in which to safely draw the gun) >> on your way to the new position, which may be only a few feet, prepare to defend yourself (with the drawn gun) >> defend yourself with the drawn gun (if necessary). Note that "gun" appears in parentheses in the first two steps, and "if necessary" appears in parentheses in the third step because the third step assumes the gun, whereas the first two steps assume creating space and preparation. The reason this is the correct sequence is because, in the OP's scenario, you were surprised by someone who got inside your guard, got the drop on you, and demanded your wallet. He disrupted your OODA loop because you were not living in Condition Yellow at the time. He should have never been able to get that close to you before you had an opportunity to get yourself out of the situation before it developed.

However, that HAS happened, and we now need to fix it. Therefore, the correct reaction is to remedy the situation by first getting yourself out of harms way as much as is possible. That increases your ability to react while decreasing his ability to bring you harm. On your way to the position which opens up the space between you, you get your own gun drawn. Assuming he does anything except walk/run away with his back to you, then you shoot him. But if he does nothing but run/walk away, you're going to have a very hard time defending yourself in court. It may not be impossible, but it will be difficult AND costly. Right at the moment, I have about $185 in my wallet, a BassPro card, my AAA card, my Costco card, and a slip of paper with my DPC membership access number to the security gate at the gun club..............which he is welcome to try and rob if he's stupid enough. Not one bit of that is worth the tens of thousands of dollars it will cost me just to be no-billed.

Now, I will in all likelihood not have any kind of crisis of conscience if I kill another person in self-defense. But even an armed man running away from me is not enough threat to shoot him in the back from 20 feet away. He will need to be actually turning back toward me with his gun in his hand, or shooting over his shoulder at me, or something, to make me believe that I need to shoot this guy.....because my little 'ol wallet with a few trifling items in it isn't of enough consequence to justify killing him. I can cancel the cards and let the gun club know my gate combination has been compromised. I keep my ID, CHL, AND my personal and business debit cards in a separate ID holder in my shirt pocket, so nothing in that wallet I throw down has my address on it. And even if it did, I have a 60 pound dog at home who would like nothing better than eating my friends. My enemies are like candy to him. Then there's the two safes full of guns, and my gun-toting wife.

He doesn't want to PO my wife. Heck, I've been married to her for 24 years, and I'm scared to death of her when she's properly ticked off.......and stuff like this really ticks her off.

So again, where do you draw the line?

WildBill wrote:Creating distance while engaging the BG was an exercise that we practiced and practiced during the "tactics" classes that I took. This tactic was also taught in the mini-classes at the TexasCHLForum day.

Indeed. And the BBQ dinner later than night with you an a bunch of the guys was something to remember too.

Umm. What about the part of the law that says "IMMEDIATELY FLEEING THE SCENE OF A FELONY".

Would that not cover you in court?

Target1911 wrote:Umm. What about the part of the law that says "IMMEDIATELY FLEEING THE SCENE OF A FELONY".

Would that not cover you in court?

Can you quote the statute that allows that was a CHL holder?

I thik you mean 'to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property' quoted in TPC 9.42(2)(B) http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... m/PE.9.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

EDIT TO ADD: There are other stipulations that have to be met too

...and
(3) he reasonably believes that:(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

Notice I didn't quote you, no sense in tying up space. If I am on a football field in the end zone then the distance would be the other end (100 yards) but if I am in the internet cafe then the distance is the front door or a few feet past so you can take your pic.

Like I said out of sight because IF he can see me he can shoot me so the threat of imminent danger is still present. I am not looking for vengeance but I have no reason to give them a second chance if they choose to come back

Sec. 9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another:(1) if the actor would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31; and(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:(A) to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or(B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.

show me where it says there is a certain distance when you have to stop or can't shoot someone in the back; it just says you can use deadly force.

Of course a jury may well make the final determination, but the question must be asked: just exactly when do the dynamics of a life threatening armed robbery end? Does the threat conclusively end when you surrender your wallet, or when the BG turns away, or when the BG turns away & takes 1, 2, or how many steps away?

Not sure what I would do, but I would consider going to any possible cover, taking aim and demand he halts or I shoot. My actions would be dictated by the differences between my LC9 & his weapon, by-standers and down range. I dont want to kill anyone, but I believe in an assertive defense.