Hard primers in Monarch/PPU ammo???

[CDH]

Is anyone else having trouble with hard primers in Monarch/PPU ammo? My KelTec P3AT has at least one fail to fire per box but doesn't seem to mind anything else. Still, it makes me suspicious of light primer strikes vs. bad ammo...???

[NOS]

I haven't had any issues with Monarch's having hard primers (at least in 9mm). However, I have seen some that have had primers set deeper before. I've never had a failure to fire and I shoot them all the time as practice ammo (well over 1500 rounds). Not to say that they don't have hard primers. I use them in my Glock 19 and my Taurus PT709 Slim without problems. Both of my guns seem to handle the deeper inset primers just fine. Next time you shoot them, take a look at the primer depth on the failed cartridges. you could be running out of striker and not getting deep enough into the primer to set it off. Usually in the case of light strikes, you will have several more FTF's as the spring is usually weak, and/or the firing pin/striker is failing to extend far enough to set off the primer (can happen if there is debris in the firing pin/striker channel, as well as a worn striker.)
I would try some different higher quality ammo to start with and see if you have any FTF's while using 100 or so rounds of that. If this goes well, then your gun may just be a little picky on the ammo it likes. Sometimes the cheap stuff isn't the best for the gun we choose. My 1911's are moody with some of the cheaper brands out there. It's all about finding what works for you and your gun.

[The Annoyed Man]

I've had no issues whatsoever with the Monarch ammo in .38 special, 9mm, .45 ACP, and .223. The firearms represented were three different S&W revolvers, a Glock 19, an M&P 45, four different 1911s by three manufacturers, and two home built AR15 carbines.

My guess is that the problem you're having is with the gun, rather than the ammo. Have you had the opportunity to shoot from the same ammo batch in other .380 caliber pistols?

[Weg]

I bet it's the ammo. I had similar problems with my Taurus PT 140 and Winchester " white box 165 gr. h.p.'s". My gun will fail to fire on the first primer strike on 2 or 3 out of a box with this type of ammo only. Second trigger pull usually sets it off, but sometimes it takes two more. Then there is my Glock 21 and aquila.... same thing, aguila .45 I get 1 or 2 a box that don't go off on the first strike, the bummer about the glock is I have to rack the slide, and re-chamber the round.

[hirundo82]

Is anyone else having trouble with hard primers in Monarch/PPU ammo? My KelTec P3AT has at least one fail to fire per box but doesn't seem to mind anything else. Still, it makes me suspicious of light primer strikes vs. bad ammo...???

I've noticed it with the 9mm Monarch--no failures in either of the Glocks I use it in but, looking at the fired cases, the primer strikes weren't as deep as the Winchester I was using in the same range session. I've read other places that Prvi Partizan, who makes Monarch for Academy, uses mil-spec primers (which are harder than commercial primers) in their ammo.

[Excaliber]

Is anyone else having trouble with hard primers in Monarch/PPU ammo? My KelTec P3AT has at least one fail to fire per box but doesn't seem to mind anything else. Still, it makes me suspicious of light primer strikes vs. bad ammo...???

I've noticed it with the 9mm Monarch--no failures in either of the Glocks I use it in but, looking at the fired cases, the primer strikes weren't as deep as the Winchester I was using in the same range session. I've read other places that Prvi Partizan, who makes Monarch for Academy, uses mil-spec primers (which are harder than commercial primers) in their ammo.

I haven't used a lot of Monarch, but the several boxes of .45's I've put through Kimbers and Kahrs all went "bang" first time every time.

[PRO]

I had 2 rounds out of 100 of PPU .380 not fire through my Ruger LCP. Both had a good dimple on the primers.

[WildBill]

Is anyone else having trouble with hard primers in Monarch/PPU ammo?

I have heard people use this term, but I am not sure what it means. Exactly what is a hard primer? Does it have a thicker or harder cup? Is it harder to get it to ignite? Or is it something else?

Does anyone know the difference, if any, between SAAMI and Mil-Spec primers?

[NOS]

I bet it's the ammo. I had similar problems with my Taurus PT 140 and Winchester " white box 165 gr. h.p.'s". My gun will fail to fire on the first primer strike on 2 or 3 out of a box with this type of ammo only. Second trigger pull usually sets it off, but sometimes it takes two more. Then there is my Glock 21 and aquila.... same thing, aguila .45 I get 1 or 2 a box that don't go off on the first strike, the bummer about the glock is I have to rack the slide, and re-chamber the round.

I used the Winchester white box in my old Taurus, and I hated it. Some people like it and swear by it (I have no idea why, maybe it's just because of the brand?). IMHO, If it's not firing in the glock then you are right in saying it is the ammo. However, with the Monarch I have never had the problems I had with the Winchester ammo.

Is anyone else having trouble with hard primers in Monarch/PPU ammo?

I have heard people use this term, but I am not sure what it means. Exactly what is a hard primer? Does it have a thicker or harder cup? Is it harder to get it to ignite? Or is it something else?

Does anyone know the difference, if any, between SAAMI and Mil-Spec primers?

A hard primer is usually classified by both the thickness of the primer cup itself, and the hardness of the material from which it's made. In handguns the primer cup thickness usually ranges from .017" for small calibers up to .020" for larger or magnum load calibers. Even though most of these are "standard" thickness, the variances in the types and hardness of metals used can add to the resistance of the primer igniting. The Mil-Spec primers can also start the whole Berdan Vs. Boxer primers and their performance differences debate.
I believe the Monarch uses the Berdan primer, but I'm not totally sure of this. In my opinion either type is good enough to make it go boom, however the Boxer type primer is the easiest to reload. SAAMI is a system of measurement standards that pertain to firearms. More on SAAMI can be found here http://www.saami.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'm not a primer expert by any means, but I've had some schooling in the past on the subject.

[WildBill]

SAAMI is a system of measurement standards that pertain to firearms. More on SAAMI can be found here http://www.saami.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for the link. They also have specifications for dimensions and testing conditions for various ammunition, but I didn't see anything on their website specifically for primers.

[Embalmo]

I had 2 rounds out of 100 of PPU .380 not fire through my Ruger LCP. Both had a good dimple on the primers.

Yep-Me too. Out of 2 boxes, I've still got the 5 duds that all have 2 good, deep dimples in them. They failed through my wife's Thunder and then through my LCP; it is indeed the ammo. Maybe it's a .380 thing more than the 9MM. I've never had to resort to Monarch 9MM.

Embalmo

[NOS]

SAAMI is a system of measurement standards that pertain to firearms. More on SAAMI can be found here http://www.saami.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for the link. They also have specifications for dimensions and testing conditions for various ammunition, but I didn't see anything on their website specifically for primers.

I didn't see anything on primers specifically either on that site. I mentioned the website to show that SAAMI is just a measurement standard pertaining to firearms and ammunition. However, they do have specific primer pocket depth specifications for the case itself, as well as the seating depth of the primer in the case for loading specific types of ammunition (I have some papers on the subject). Different types of ammo (Mil-Spec, hunting, target) have several different specs including the primer's pocket and seating depth's.
Hypothetically speaking, lets take a Mil-Spec ammo of random caliber that has a deep set primer. If you try to fire this round in your trusty Remington 700 action, even though the round is of the same caliber, and fits the chamber correctly with the proper head spacing, it can FTF due to the primers depth in the primer pocket. Simply put, the firing pin can't extend far enough to hit the primer with enough force to cause ignition. This is because the Mil-Spec round has a primer that is set deeper than the traditional hunting round the gun was made for.
Sorry for the long explanation, I'm half asleep at the moment . I just hope my ramblings make sense.

[WildBill]

Sorry for the long explanation, I'm half asleep at the moment . I just hope my ramblings make sense.

Yes they make sense. I am having a problem with some previous posts where they say they have good dimpling. That would indicate a good strike. If the primer was "hard" it should go off with a good strike. If it was set too deep it wouldn't get the good dimple. I guess that's the question. Why don't they go off with a good strike?

[NOS]

Sorry for the long explanation, I'm half asleep at the moment . I just hope my ramblings make sense.

Yes they make sense. I am having a problem with some previous posts where they say they have good dimpling. That would indicate a good strike. If the primer was "hard" it should go off with a good strike. If it was set too deep it wouldn't get the good dimple. I guess that's the question. Why don't they go off with a good strike?

I'm sorry if I misunderstood your question, it's been a long weekend so far
You are absolutely correct in saying that the deep dimples would indicate a good strike. In my previous post I was responding to CDH's question about hard primers. I failed to notice PRO's post talking about good dimples in the primer that failed. So, I'll try my best to answer your question.
There are a lot of reasons why a primer would fail.
First off, primers are very susceptible to humidity. Any humidity can cause an exposed primer to fail before ever being seated in a case. In most cases high humidity is the main reason (aside from a light strike) why a primer wouldn't fire. Once the primer is seated into the primer pocket, it is sealed off from humidity and is usually safe, as long as it wasn't exposed to moisture before hand.
Secondly, If the primer isn't seated properly into the case, it can cause a failure. If the primer isn't seated deep enough, it would take a much harder strike to set it off. The anvil (or back) of the primer must be seated firmly against the bottom of the primer pocket in order to provide the proper resistance for the chemical compounds to be compressed against it. If the primer isn't seated, the anvil will flex (since it has no contact to the case) and the compounds will not detonate unless struck much harder.
Both of these occurrences would easily explain a deep dimple in the primer and still having a failure. There might also be other reasons, but I think those are the best answers I can give you to your question.
Hope that helps