Ruger LCP vs. Kel-Tec P3-AT
Moderator: carlson1
-
Topic author - Member
- Posts in topic: 8
- Posts: 96
- Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:54 pm
- Location: DFW
Ruger LCP vs. Kel-Tec P3-AT
It's been hard to find more than a handful of reviews about the LCP. Jeff Quinn did one, and a few others. Alot of people have really wondered, "how does it stack up against the P3-AT?"
Well, I've had a P3-AT for nearly a year, and picked up the Ruger this past weekend. Took them both to the range this weekend; had a few surprises. Look for this comparison to heat up as the Ruger becomes more available. Unfortunately, I won't be able to post a full review, because the hammer spring in my Kel-Tec broke halfway through my test. As for the Ruger, I took it straight from the gun show to the range and shot it right out of the box. Here they are, growling at each other:
Let me say this: I was interested in the Ruger only because I never had total faith in the Kel-Tec. I bought mine at the same time as two other friends. One friend has had to send his back to the factory. I have had two minor issues that I was able to fix. Although I'm not a gunsmith, I like to tinker and can figure some things out. The third friend has only put 100 rounds through his, and has had no problems. My Kel-Tec had about 500-600 rounds through it at the time of the test, and averaged a 3-4% FTE rate, regardless of the ammo used. Now you know why I never had total faith in it. All that aside, let me give you some quick observations that I was able to make with the small head-to-head test I was able to perform. Some of these categories are trivial, and these are only my opinions.
Let's start with dimensions. You can find dimensions everywhere, and I have run across different numbers in different places. I used two different digital scales to determine the weight of the guns, and they read the same. If it's off by a hundredth of an ounce, nobody will care. As for dimensions, I used my digital calipers on the widest and longest points I could find. My calipers are accurate; the only thing that can affect the measurement is if the calipers aren't placed exactly on the longest and widest points. That requires good eyeballing, and I doubt anybody will care if my reading is a hundredth of an inch off. Let's take a look at what they look like on top of each other:
Kel-Tec P3-AT Dimensions
Weight, no mag: 7.90 oz.
Weight, with empty mag: 8.97 oz.
Loaded Weight, 7 rounds Speer gold-dot HP: 11.36 oz.
Width: .826 in.
Length: 5.137 in.
Height: 3.599 in.
Ruger LCP Dimensions
Weight, no mag: 8.41 oz.
Weight, with empty mag: 9.56 oz.
Loaded Weight, 7 rounds Speer gold-dot HP: 11.95 oz.
Width: .813 in.
Length: 5.167 in.
Height: 3.640 in.
Now for my brief opinion of which one is better in the following categories. Keep in mind that the test was halted halway through when the Kel-Tec broke:
Appearance: The Ruger is sexy, the Kel-Tec looks cheap. Even if you're one of those that think Ruger ripped off Kel-Tec, you'd have to limit that on dimensions and the assembly diagram. They sure didn't steal the looks.
Fit & Finish: The Ruger is tight, solid, and feels well-made. The Kel-Tec has a wider gap between the slide, a rougher finish, and feels much less solid. Just look at the finish of the plastic, your hand with thank you when it goes bang:
Handling: gotta give this one to Ruger. It's less harsh on the hand while firing, as it absorbs recoil better. The Kel-Tec has rough checkering and doesn't feel nearly as good in the hand. The Ruger is smoothed out well and has a nice quality feel to it.
Accuracy: I found the Kel-Tec to be slightly more accurate. This may be due to my experience with it, and having none with the Ruger. My hunch is that this is not the case. The Ruger shot a little low, and I have read this elsewhere also. With some practice, I think the average person would be able to achieve 3-inch groups at 5 yards and 4-inch groups at seven yards. More practice would equal better grouping, of course. These are short-range guns, so either one is effective within self-defense range. This round goes to the Kel-Tec. Here's a pic of the near identical sights. While the KT's sights are better in my opinion, this really shows the difference in the Ruger finish. By the way, I borrowed by buddy's KT for the pics; I though it was only fair to compare a fairly-new KT to the Ruger on camera. Ruger on the left, KT on the right.
Okay, now for the targets. In the first two pictures, there are 10 rounds from each gun at 5 yards. In my opinion, anyone using these guns are likely to shoot at this distance or less. I fired approximately one round per second. Now, before you say I'm a bad shot, I would ask you if you've fired one of these guns before. The sights are just little nubs, and if you don't have a very smooth trigger pull, it will easily yank it off course. Plus, I didn't want to make this overly scientific by taking 30-seconds between shots, but no rapid-fire either. So, I compromised. I may not be Jerry Miculek, but if you try these two drills exactly as I did, you'll see what I mean. These are not guns with 4-inch barrels, so you don't expect that kind of accuracy. Plus, sighting those black sights against a black target isn't as easy as it sounds. Anyway, first the Ruger, then the Kel-Tec at 15 feet:
The Ruger seemed to walk on me a bit, perhaps I was trying to compensate, which would be a mistake for the test. Keep in mind these were the first rounds fired, right out of the box. I don't really have an explanation. As you can see all shots from both guns are within 2 inches of the center of the bullseye, except for the one flyer from the Kel-Tec. Chalk that flyer up to me, like I said, you gotta watch the trigger pull on these little guns.
The second targets are from 21 feet. This is really the outer range for these guns, especially when adrenaline hits and you're no longer Mr. Bullseye. I did the same drill...shots were one second apart. The Ruger target is on top, Kel-Tec on the bottom. The Ruger target has two more shots in it, because the Kel-Tec broke while shooting this target.
These targets don't have measurements on them, but the outside line of the inner orange circle is 2.5 incles from the center of the bullseye; the outside edge of the outer ring is five inches. As you can see, the Ruger shot a tighter group, but a little low. The Kel-Tec, while more scattered, had 3 bullseyes and its rounds were centered more around the target. So, at 21 feet, both guns put every round within three inches of the center of the bullseye at a semi-brisk shooting pace. I think most of us would agree that the Kel-Tec held the edge here.
Reliability: This remains to be seen, as the Ruger is new. After the Kel-Tec broke, I kept shooting the Ruger. After 200 rounds, it was flawless. While only time will tell about the LCP's reliability, it looks promising. I also found it ironic that the Kel-Tec broke during the test. I wouldn't even have the Ruger if I had peace of mind with the Kel-Tec to begin with.
Concealability: This is a toss-up. the guns are basically identical in dimensions and weight. I have read that the Ruger is 1.5 oz. heaver, put I don't know where that comes from. I used two different scales and could not find any difference beyond .59 oz. I would consider them equals in this category, but I will say that the Kel-Tec belt clip is a really nice accessory that Ruger hasn't come out with yet. Since it's not interchanable, Ruger needs to hurry up with that.
So, there you go. My quick opinion on a half-test. Although I may be premature to say this, I would recommend the LCP highly. If you have a Kel-Tec and it hasn't given you any problem, great. Keep it if you have faith in it. I will say that the LCP will be a thorn in the side of Kel-Tec, even if it turns out initial impressions were too generous.
I plan to repair my KT, and run about 200 rounds through it. If it doesn't have any problems, I'll give it a good cleaning, another fluff and buff, and sell it. And yes, I'll disclose to the buyer about its history.
p.s. I cartainly don't want to sound like a KT basher...I know there are many satisfied Kel-Tec customers out there, so I've tried to be as objective and fair as possible.
Well, I've had a P3-AT for nearly a year, and picked up the Ruger this past weekend. Took them both to the range this weekend; had a few surprises. Look for this comparison to heat up as the Ruger becomes more available. Unfortunately, I won't be able to post a full review, because the hammer spring in my Kel-Tec broke halfway through my test. As for the Ruger, I took it straight from the gun show to the range and shot it right out of the box. Here they are, growling at each other:
Let me say this: I was interested in the Ruger only because I never had total faith in the Kel-Tec. I bought mine at the same time as two other friends. One friend has had to send his back to the factory. I have had two minor issues that I was able to fix. Although I'm not a gunsmith, I like to tinker and can figure some things out. The third friend has only put 100 rounds through his, and has had no problems. My Kel-Tec had about 500-600 rounds through it at the time of the test, and averaged a 3-4% FTE rate, regardless of the ammo used. Now you know why I never had total faith in it. All that aside, let me give you some quick observations that I was able to make with the small head-to-head test I was able to perform. Some of these categories are trivial, and these are only my opinions.
Let's start with dimensions. You can find dimensions everywhere, and I have run across different numbers in different places. I used two different digital scales to determine the weight of the guns, and they read the same. If it's off by a hundredth of an ounce, nobody will care. As for dimensions, I used my digital calipers on the widest and longest points I could find. My calipers are accurate; the only thing that can affect the measurement is if the calipers aren't placed exactly on the longest and widest points. That requires good eyeballing, and I doubt anybody will care if my reading is a hundredth of an inch off. Let's take a look at what they look like on top of each other:
Kel-Tec P3-AT Dimensions
Weight, no mag: 7.90 oz.
Weight, with empty mag: 8.97 oz.
Loaded Weight, 7 rounds Speer gold-dot HP: 11.36 oz.
Width: .826 in.
Length: 5.137 in.
Height: 3.599 in.
Ruger LCP Dimensions
Weight, no mag: 8.41 oz.
Weight, with empty mag: 9.56 oz.
Loaded Weight, 7 rounds Speer gold-dot HP: 11.95 oz.
Width: .813 in.
Length: 5.167 in.
Height: 3.640 in.
Now for my brief opinion of which one is better in the following categories. Keep in mind that the test was halted halway through when the Kel-Tec broke:
Appearance: The Ruger is sexy, the Kel-Tec looks cheap. Even if you're one of those that think Ruger ripped off Kel-Tec, you'd have to limit that on dimensions and the assembly diagram. They sure didn't steal the looks.
Fit & Finish: The Ruger is tight, solid, and feels well-made. The Kel-Tec has a wider gap between the slide, a rougher finish, and feels much less solid. Just look at the finish of the plastic, your hand with thank you when it goes bang:
Handling: gotta give this one to Ruger. It's less harsh on the hand while firing, as it absorbs recoil better. The Kel-Tec has rough checkering and doesn't feel nearly as good in the hand. The Ruger is smoothed out well and has a nice quality feel to it.
Accuracy: I found the Kel-Tec to be slightly more accurate. This may be due to my experience with it, and having none with the Ruger. My hunch is that this is not the case. The Ruger shot a little low, and I have read this elsewhere also. With some practice, I think the average person would be able to achieve 3-inch groups at 5 yards and 4-inch groups at seven yards. More practice would equal better grouping, of course. These are short-range guns, so either one is effective within self-defense range. This round goes to the Kel-Tec. Here's a pic of the near identical sights. While the KT's sights are better in my opinion, this really shows the difference in the Ruger finish. By the way, I borrowed by buddy's KT for the pics; I though it was only fair to compare a fairly-new KT to the Ruger on camera. Ruger on the left, KT on the right.
Okay, now for the targets. In the first two pictures, there are 10 rounds from each gun at 5 yards. In my opinion, anyone using these guns are likely to shoot at this distance or less. I fired approximately one round per second. Now, before you say I'm a bad shot, I would ask you if you've fired one of these guns before. The sights are just little nubs, and if you don't have a very smooth trigger pull, it will easily yank it off course. Plus, I didn't want to make this overly scientific by taking 30-seconds between shots, but no rapid-fire either. So, I compromised. I may not be Jerry Miculek, but if you try these two drills exactly as I did, you'll see what I mean. These are not guns with 4-inch barrels, so you don't expect that kind of accuracy. Plus, sighting those black sights against a black target isn't as easy as it sounds. Anyway, first the Ruger, then the Kel-Tec at 15 feet:
The Ruger seemed to walk on me a bit, perhaps I was trying to compensate, which would be a mistake for the test. Keep in mind these were the first rounds fired, right out of the box. I don't really have an explanation. As you can see all shots from both guns are within 2 inches of the center of the bullseye, except for the one flyer from the Kel-Tec. Chalk that flyer up to me, like I said, you gotta watch the trigger pull on these little guns.
The second targets are from 21 feet. This is really the outer range for these guns, especially when adrenaline hits and you're no longer Mr. Bullseye. I did the same drill...shots were one second apart. The Ruger target is on top, Kel-Tec on the bottom. The Ruger target has two more shots in it, because the Kel-Tec broke while shooting this target.
These targets don't have measurements on them, but the outside line of the inner orange circle is 2.5 incles from the center of the bullseye; the outside edge of the outer ring is five inches. As you can see, the Ruger shot a tighter group, but a little low. The Kel-Tec, while more scattered, had 3 bullseyes and its rounds were centered more around the target. So, at 21 feet, both guns put every round within three inches of the center of the bullseye at a semi-brisk shooting pace. I think most of us would agree that the Kel-Tec held the edge here.
Reliability: This remains to be seen, as the Ruger is new. After the Kel-Tec broke, I kept shooting the Ruger. After 200 rounds, it was flawless. While only time will tell about the LCP's reliability, it looks promising. I also found it ironic that the Kel-Tec broke during the test. I wouldn't even have the Ruger if I had peace of mind with the Kel-Tec to begin with.
Concealability: This is a toss-up. the guns are basically identical in dimensions and weight. I have read that the Ruger is 1.5 oz. heaver, put I don't know where that comes from. I used two different scales and could not find any difference beyond .59 oz. I would consider them equals in this category, but I will say that the Kel-Tec belt clip is a really nice accessory that Ruger hasn't come out with yet. Since it's not interchanable, Ruger needs to hurry up with that.
So, there you go. My quick opinion on a half-test. Although I may be premature to say this, I would recommend the LCP highly. If you have a Kel-Tec and it hasn't given you any problem, great. Keep it if you have faith in it. I will say that the LCP will be a thorn in the side of Kel-Tec, even if it turns out initial impressions were too generous.
I plan to repair my KT, and run about 200 rounds through it. If it doesn't have any problems, I'll give it a good cleaning, another fluff and buff, and sell it. And yes, I'll disclose to the buyer about its history.
p.s. I cartainly don't want to sound like a KT basher...I know there are many satisfied Kel-Tec customers out there, so I've tried to be as objective and fair as possible.
Last edited by brewster on Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Everybody wang-chung tonight."
-
- Senior Member
- Posts in topic: 4
- Posts: 11452
- Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:15 pm
- Location: Plano
Re: Ruger LCP vs. Kel-Tec P3-AT
Nice job on the review. I have considered the Kel-tec on a couple occasions and after holding it, handed it back to the guy behind the counter. I thought it felt cheap. I was still in maybe mode up until I took my CHL class. There was a feller in there for the half day renewal class and when he went to do his shooting part, his Keltec just quit firing. He took it and went off to a gun smith to return later for his shooting. I did not get to ask him what happened to make it stop firing. Then while shooting at my local range a feller was practicing with his Kel-tec. He was having nothing but trouble with it. I couldn't see what was going on as we had divider walls between the ranges. He would fire a couple rounds then start cussing the gun. Eventually he gave up and left the range grumbling about the ancestry of his pistol. Before he left, I asked him what it did and he said it just quit firing and he didn't know what was going on with it. Now I read here that the Kel-Tec you where shooting has had issues before and broke while you where testing it. Enough for me. I don't think the BG is going to wait while I get my gun fixed. I will take a look at the Ruger for a BUG.
Thanks for the hands on review .
Thanks for the hands on review .
NRA-Endowment Member
http://www.planoair.com
http://www.planoairconditioningandheating.com
http://www.planoair.com
http://www.planoairconditioningandheating.com
-
- Senior Member
- Posts in topic: 2
- Posts: 200
- Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:10 am
- Location: North Central Texas
Re: Ruger LCP vs. Kel-Tec P3-AT
Good review. How is the trigger pull compared to the KT? Same? I have a KT .32 that I want to trade in on the Ruger..
Jim
Jim
NRA, TSRA
Re: Ruger LCP vs. Kel-Tec P3-AT
Thanks for the side by side pics. The fit/finish on the Ruger certainly looks better. Nice to see some competition in this area, and look forward to see Kahr's entry later this year as well. +1 on wanting to know how the triggers compared.
Re: Ruger LCP vs. Kel-Tec P3-AT
Just for the record I have a Kel-Tec 32 and have not had any issues with it.
Women on the DRAW – drill, revise, attain, win
Coached Practice Sessions for Women
Coached Practice Sessions for Women
-
- Senior Member
- Posts in topic: 1
- Posts: 961
- Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:58 pm
Re: Ruger LCP vs. Kel-Tec P3-AT
The trigger pull and finish on the Ruger is what I am interested in. I don't think the finish longevity will be known for some time. However, the trigger pull is a real factor for me. I hate the P3AT trigger as have most of the people I have talked to. If the Ruger has a better finish and trigger pull I might consider getting one once the bugs are worked out of them. I have had no problems with my KT but I don't shoot it much more than a few mags full at a time for the year or so I have had it.
I got my P3AT as a BUG which to me is nothing more than an emergency gun if my main carry goes down and I must get away. I don't really care if it doesn't hold-up to several thousand rounds as long as it will fire when I need it. It is recommended that the KT be inspected often. I think that may be a problem some are having with it. I don't think the Ruger will do much better in the hands of those who want to put hundreds of rounds thru it at a time. I take these types of guns as shoot 50 and break it down and clean and inspect it. Future generations of these "plastic pocket guns" will be more reliable as better plastics are used and the fitting issues are worked out. Until then, I look at all these smaller guns as basically disposable guns in that the frame and/or parts are going to warp or break eventually. The more the gun is shot the faster that is going to happen. So, I shoot mine enough to hit the target and inspect and clean/oil it often. It is the price we have to pay, for now anyway, for an inexpensive and very concealable BUG. That is my opinion.
Thanks for the review.
I got my P3AT as a BUG which to me is nothing more than an emergency gun if my main carry goes down and I must get away. I don't really care if it doesn't hold-up to several thousand rounds as long as it will fire when I need it. It is recommended that the KT be inspected often. I think that may be a problem some are having with it. I don't think the Ruger will do much better in the hands of those who want to put hundreds of rounds thru it at a time. I take these types of guns as shoot 50 and break it down and clean and inspect it. Future generations of these "plastic pocket guns" will be more reliable as better plastics are used and the fitting issues are worked out. Until then, I look at all these smaller guns as basically disposable guns in that the frame and/or parts are going to warp or break eventually. The more the gun is shot the faster that is going to happen. So, I shoot mine enough to hit the target and inspect and clean/oil it often. It is the price we have to pay, for now anyway, for an inexpensive and very concealable BUG. That is my opinion.
Thanks for the review.
http://gunrightsradio.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
-
- Senior Member
- Posts in topic: 1
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:05 pm
- Location: North East Dallas County
- Contact:
Re: Ruger LCP vs. Kel-Tec P3-AT
I want to get the ruger for the last shot slide lock. I do not think I could count my rounds in a real firefight and when my keltec goes CLICK im not sure how long it would take me to realize im just empty
For those of you with failure to feed on the keltec I suggest this.... take it allllll apart and finish it like a more expensive gun. Take out the dremel and metal polish and make that puppy shine. I have put a mirror polish job on my feed ramp and it eats just about everything I have thrown at it. Polishing the outside of the chamber and the ramps where the barrel tips up took a lot out of the effort to rack the slide and makes that puppy sing. I also took the hard bristle brush attachments and used it to smooth off the rough plastic mold marks.
It is not going to turn your keltec into a glock, but it will cut down a lot of common issues.
Is the ruger trigger a smooth pull or does it get harder as it goes back like the keltec?
For those of you with failure to feed on the keltec I suggest this.... take it allllll apart and finish it like a more expensive gun. Take out the dremel and metal polish and make that puppy shine. I have put a mirror polish job on my feed ramp and it eats just about everything I have thrown at it. Polishing the outside of the chamber and the ramps where the barrel tips up took a lot out of the effort to rack the slide and makes that puppy sing. I also took the hard bristle brush attachments and used it to smooth off the rough plastic mold marks.
It is not going to turn your keltec into a glock, but it will cut down a lot of common issues.
Is the ruger trigger a smooth pull or does it get harder as it goes back like the keltec?
Don't wait for your ship to come in, swim out to it...kill the captain...and claim it as yours. : Lodge2004
-
- Senior Member
- Posts in topic: 2
- Posts: 2410
- Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 10:57 pm
- Location: Denton County
- Contact:
Re: Ruger LCP vs. Kel-Tec P3-AT
Thanks for the review. Very good.
I took a lady student over to The Bullet Trap Saturday morning to pick up a new Kahr CW-9. They had one of the Rugers out for display but a loooong waiting list to get one ($289).
Another student was out this morning for a CHL renewal. Before qualifying with a full size Beretta 9, he shot a NIB Kel-Tec .32. Lots of FTEs. He's about to move to DC and had been contemplating giving the gun to his wife, who is remaining here for now. I told him to check out the fluff and buff stuff on the various web sites. And reminded him that they too are known for great customer service and a "lifetime" warranty: send it back to them often enough and sometime in your lifetime, they'll make it right.
I took a lady student over to The Bullet Trap Saturday morning to pick up a new Kahr CW-9. They had one of the Rugers out for display but a loooong waiting list to get one ($289).
Another student was out this morning for a CHL renewal. Before qualifying with a full size Beretta 9, he shot a NIB Kel-Tec .32. Lots of FTEs. He's about to move to DC and had been contemplating giving the gun to his wife, who is remaining here for now. I told him to check out the fluff and buff stuff on the various web sites. And reminded him that they too are known for great customer service and a "lifetime" warranty: send it back to them often enough and sometime in your lifetime, they'll make it right.
CHL Instructor since 1995
http://www.dentoncountysports.com "A Private Palace for Pistol Proficiency"
http://www.dentoncountysports.com "A Private Palace for Pistol Proficiency"
Re: Ruger LCP vs. Kel-Tec P3-AT
Here is the Ruger LCP compared to a Seecamp. Ruger seemed ok to me and not to tough on the hand.
Re: Ruger LCP vs. Kel-Tec P3-AT
Actually, the LCP does not have a "last shot slide lock." It has a manual lock that you can set to hold the slide open.melkor41 wrote:I want to get the ruger for the last shot slide lock.
Regards,
Alan
NRA Life Member
TSRA Member
TSRA Member
-
- Senior Member
- Posts in topic: 2
- Posts: 1033
- Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:26 pm
- Location: Katy, Texas
Re: Ruger LCP vs. Kel-Tec P3-AT
I too have a 1st generation P-32 that never fails to shoot and has no feeding or ejection issues. I trust it to go bang every time I pull the trigger. It always has.CompVest wrote:Just for the record I have a Kel-Tec 32 and have not had any issues with it.
There will always be prayer in schools as long as there are tests.
"It's all about shot placement."- David (Slayer of Goliath)
"It's all about shot placement."- David (Slayer of Goliath)
-
- Senior Member
- Posts in topic: 4
- Posts: 11452
- Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:15 pm
- Location: Plano
Re: Ruger LCP vs. Kel-Tec P3-AT
I just found this out a few minutes ago. I ordered the LCP this afternoon assuming the slide lock worked as a normal, last shot slide lock. It isn't a deal breaker, but I would sure like to know why Ruger didn't go all the way and make it a last shot slide lock.ttorion wrote:Actually, the LCP does not have a "last shot slide lock." It has a manual lock that you can set to hold the slide open.melkor41 wrote:I want to get the ruger for the last shot slide lock.
Regards,
Alan
NRA-Endowment Member
http://www.planoair.com
http://www.planoairconditioningandheating.com
http://www.planoair.com
http://www.planoairconditioningandheating.com
Re: Ruger LCP vs. Kel-Tec P3-AT
Very, very good review! I'm not really interested in the LCP or the KelTec for that matter (had one) but if I was looking your review would have been most helpful.brewster wrote:It's been hard to find more than a handful of reviews about the LCP...
-
- Senior Member
- Posts in topic: 1
- Posts: 632
- Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:57 am
- Location: D/FW Texas
Re: Ruger LCP vs. Kel-Tec P3-AT
I have about 600 rounds through my ugly little P3AT and it has never had any failures of any sort. Can't say that for all of my pistols. The Ruger does look nice though.
A few Glocks, a few Kahrs, Dan Wesson CBOB 10mm, Dan Wesson CBOB 45ACP, Springer Champion Operator
****************************************************************************************************
****************************************************************************************************