Concealed Carry Ammunition (Info/Poll/Discussion)

[MotherBear]

We use Speer Gold Dot. Our research indicated it was reliable and well-suited for the job. It's also what the local PD uses, which we figure would be helpful if we ever had to defend our choice of ammunition before a jury.

[Charlies.Contingency]

Make my own.

Being that you have acquired a peculiar taste for something, is there anything even remotely close in comparison to what you make yourself?

[AlaskanInTexas]

Make my own.

Being that you have acquired a peculiar taste for something, is there anything even remotely close in comparison to what you make yourself?

I am not too particular at all. I just work up loads that work reliably in my various firearms - I am much more concerned about reliable feeding than I am about the minutia of terminal ballistics. That said, I am sitting on piles of Hornady XTP bullets in various calibers that I use for self-defense rounds.

[Cedar Park Dad]

Zombie Max ammo, coffee, toilet paper. If you have these, you are prepared for the Zombie Apocalypse!

WO WO WO you forgot chocolate cake and Tex Mex. Whats the point of being in the Zombie apocalypse, if you can't enjoy it?

[Charlies.Contingency]

Make my own.

Being that you have acquired a peculiar taste for something, is there anything even remotely close in comparison to what you make yourself?

I am not too particular at all. I just work up loads that work reliably in my various firearms - I am much more concerned about reliable feeding than I am about the minutia of terminal ballistics. That said, I am sitting on piles of Hornady XTP bullets in various calibers that I use for self-defense rounds.

Of course, I understand. I personally like the Hornady XTP projectiles as well. I've seen academy is primarily stocking Hornady now as far as projectiles go.

[wheelgun1958]

125 gr SJHP 357 mag for my SP101, regardless of make. If I have my J-frame it's 158 gr LSWHP, usually Federal.

[ghostrider]

Problem is, I have more than one carry pistol, and I use different loads in them, so I can't answer the poll.

same here, so here's a list:

38spl +P: Speer Gold Dot short barrel
9mm: Speer Gold Dot 124gr, but found the Glock prefers Black Hills 124gr XTP
40: Winchester 'govt overrun' 180gr bonded JHP (white box)
45: Speer Gold Dot, but will probably try Black Hills

XTP are now more appealing because I can buy the bullets for reloading - Gold Dots are still hard to find.

[drjoker]

I don't see ball ammo as a choice. It is the ammo of choice for the masses; poor, misinformed, military, & mouse guns.

[tyree]

Problem is, I have more than one carry pistol, and I use different loads in them ....

this. But I selected HST since that's the load i use in the majority of my daily carry options.

[Charlies.Contingency]

I don't see ball ammo as a choice. It is the ammo of choice for the masses; poor, misinformed, military, & mouse guns.

But I did specify preferred carry ammunition, as in for concealed carry. All of us here should know that ball ammunition is more dangerous to 3rd parties in a conflict than anything else.

[Charlies.Contingency]

Problem is, I have more than one carry pistol, and I use different loads in them, so I can't answer the poll.

same here, so here's a list:

38spl +P: Speer Gold Dot short barrel
9mm: Speer Gold Dot 124gr, but found the Glock prefers Black Hills 124gr XTP
40: Winchester 'govt overrun' 180gr bonded JHP (white box)
45: Speer Gold Dot, but will probably try Black Hills

XTP are now more appealing because I can buy the bullets for reloading - Gold Dots are still hard to find.

Thanks for the extra info! Even if you do use multiple loads, this thread and poll was so I could learn a little bit more about what the masses of our CHL holders prefer. I am very surprised thus far, that speer is where it's at in comparison to federal hydrashock/HST! I always thought it would be flip flopped. As of now hornady critical duty/defense/zombie is pretty dead locked with speer. I'm also very pleased to see nobody prefers RIP, but also that nobody has chosen DRT. Everybody has been crazed with the two I thought, but nobody can pull a sales epidemic like hornady with zombie max. Though "Rest In Peace" and "Dead Right There" are catchy.

[The Annoyed Man]

Problem is, I have more than one carry pistol, and I use different loads in them, so I can't answer the poll.

same here, so here's a list:

38spl +P: Speer Gold Dot short barrel
9mm: Speer Gold Dot 124gr, but found the Glock prefers Black Hills 124gr XTP
40: Winchester 'govt overrun' 180gr bonded JHP (white box)
45: Speer Gold Dot, but will probably try Black Hills

XTP are now more appealing because I can buy the bullets for reloading - Gold Dots are still hard to find.

Thanks for the extra info! Even if you do use multiple loads, this thread and poll was so I could learn a little bit more about what the masses of our CHL holders prefer. I am very surprised thus far, that speer is where it's at in comparison to federal hydrashock/HST! I always thought it would be flip flopped. As of now hornady critical duty/defense/zombie is pretty dead locked with speer. I'm also very pleased to see nobody prefers RIP, but also that nobody has chosen DRT. Everybody has been crazed with the two I thought, but nobody can pull a sales epidemic like hornady with zombie max. Though "Rest In Peace" and "Dead Right There" are catchy.

That was actually me that said I couldn't answer the poll. My list was given in a later reply in paragraph form:

• Corbon DPX 115 grain in pocket 9mm (incorrectly listed as 110 grain in my previous post) - 13.5" to 15" penetration through 4 layers of heavy denim into 10% ballistic gel, in a pistol identical to my Kahr PM9: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVq5OO0TVMM.
• 230 grain Federal HST in full-sized 45s - 890 fps / 404 lb ft in duty length barrels.
• 185 grain Critical Defense (not +P) in subcompact 45s (I had previously listed as 180 grain in error). In 3" barrels, it still delivers 900 fps/333 lb ft. With those numbers, +P isn't really necessary, so I figure why beat up the gun and my hand?
• 125 grain Critical Defense .357 magnum in my snubbie - 1200 fps and 400 lb ft from a 2" barrel.

My list is not necessarily better or worse than any other, but the main thing is that I thought through my choices, and they are on the list for specific reasons that apply to my life and my carry needs .....not just because they are more or less popular with other shooters. I would urge anyone else to put in the same time and thought into their choices, and then test those choices in their guns, as I have.

A note about the Hornady ammo:

• With the Hornady Critical Defense/Critical Duty ammunition, the primary use difference (besides being +P loadings in .45 with a heavier bullet) is that Hornady has published barrier testing data for the Duty ammo. The bullet design differs in that the Duty bullet uses a high-antimony lead, making it harder, and it has a reinforcing band that keeps it from shedding its jacket. Both bullets are crimped, both bullets have the same basic polymer insert, and both cartridges are crimped and use nickel plating to ward off tarnishing and aid extraction. The 220 grain +P produces 975/464 fps/lbs ft —in a 5" barrel— compared to the 900/333 of the 185 grain standard pressure load —in a 3" barrel. Will my pocket sized .45 handle the heavier +P load? Yes. Do I want to shoot it in that gun? No. And, note that the Duty load's velocity/energy figures are derived with a duty length barrel, not in a pocket gun. There is nothing wrong with that ammo choice, but it is not engineered to perform in pocket guns, but rather in full-sized duty weapons. So the performance you obtain from it in a gun with a 3" barrel will be different..........including its barrier-penetration properties. There is some small probability that I might have to shoot outwards through my own car door or side window during a car-jacking attempt, but there is almost ZERO probability that I might have to shoot into a car door or window. If I am being shot at by a shooter who is inside of a car, the window is already open, and I don't need to shoot through glass. At any distance that I have any business returning fire into a car, a standard pressure 185 grain bullet (of almost any design) will penetrate a car door. Enough of them will hit the person on the other side of it, certainly causing consternation if not serious injury and/or death.
  
  This is not an argument against using the Critical Duty ammo. This is a rational argument in favor of not feeling particularly under-armed with the Critical Defense ammo if you are carrying a short-barreled pistol which may not be able to take advantage of the Duty cartridge's capabilities.

A note about barrel length:

• If you've been paying attention to the above, you'll note that I keep mentioning barrel length. Ammo manufacturers often list a certain velocity/energy output, but unless they specifically tell you that these results were obtained with short barrels, you can take it to the bank that they used either a 4", 5", or 6" (for magnum revolver loads) barrel, or even longer (see the Critical Defense information that follows). You will not get anything like the same results with your pocket gun, if that's what you carry!! Hornady has taken the step in the case of their Critical Defense line of adding ballistic data for short barreled pistols where such are commonly carried in a given caliber. For instance, in their 125 grain Critical Defense .357 magnum load, they give you figures for an 8" test barrel, and a 2" barrel. Almost nobody carries a 8" barreled .357, so those numbers are meaningless to someone with a 4" barreled revolver. But if you carry a 2" barreled snubbie, and lots of people do, then Hornady's published figures for a 2" barrel are at least a close approximation of what your own results will be.
  
  If the ammo manufacturer does not list the ballistics for the barrel length of the pistol in which you plan to carry that load, PHONE them and ASK. That is exactly what I did. When Hornady first published ballistics for the 125 grain .357 load, information for 2" barrels was absent from the website, and not owning my own chronograph, I did not want to buy the ammo without having at least a starting place. On the phone, they gave me the figures they already had from testing with 2" barrels, that had simply not been published yet. On that basis, I started carrying that load. In fact, if you cared to take the time to search for the very first time I ever posted figures for that load here on this website, that would be the information that Hornady had given me over the phone at the time. They must have gotten enough phone calls, because they eventually added that information to the page for that load......but trust me, it wasn't there from the get-go. As it happens, the published information is exactly what they told me over the phone.
  
  Mind you, this does not replace a chronograph for knowing exactly how a cartridge will perform in your individual pistol, but it is a good starting point.

A note about carrying handloads:

• Do so at your own risk. "Conventional wisdom" used to say that it wasn't a good idea simply because an overzealous prosecutor might turn that information against you in the event that you actually have to shoot someone with it. "What's the matter? The boolits our boys in blue use isn't deadly enough for you? You had to go cook up a private 'devastator' load? You some kind of murderous animal?" Conventional wisdom changes over time. There is nothing illegal about using handloads in your carry pistol. But be advised that there is no accounting for the mindset of a local prosecutor. Handloads might be no problem in your local jurisdiction, but you can never predict in which jurisdiction your self-defense shooting might take place. For sure, you can cook up a load that will perform more brilliantly in your pistol, but the reputable mainstream self-defense ammo manufacturers - Hornady, Corbon, Federal, Winchester, Remington, etc. - also have built their reputations on quality products, AND, they have the budget to test their products which, unless you are independently wealthy, you can't match. This is just my personal opinion (and I do have the ability to load my own), but I am willing to make that compromise and carry commercially available ammo in the interest of liability. You can take that a step further simply by asking your local LEO what they are authorized to carry, and then carry that, but just remember that they are carrying duty-length barrels, and what their jurisdiction approves may not be approved by some other jurisdiction.

A note about novelty ammo:

• Carry it if you want. I think it adds an unnecessary layer of complexity in a defensive shooting. Yes, you can prove that the Zombie Max bullet is a Critical Defense bullet with a green insert, but you might still get asked why you bought that instead of the Critical Defense. "Did you think that it would be funny to shoot someone with this bullet, instead of the other?" This line of thought may seem excessively paranoid, but we carry guns to defend ourselves. This necessarily means that we may use them to shoot an attacker if necessary. It follows that we will probably have to deal with a prosecutor. It is true that a prosecutor in Texas may not be as likely to make a martyr out of you as in some other state. OTH, are you willing to stake your freedom on that? Is your freedom worth the comparatively minuscule amusement from using a novelty bullet?
  
  Other novelty items.... for instance, the RIP bullet. Do NOT believe the hype. Read this: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/0 ... phase-one/. As it happens, it doesn't perform much better than .22 LR in some conditions. It does OK against plywood, but not enough significantly better in my opinion to make that the reason for carrying it. In most other situations, it way underperforms compared to the manufacturers claims. The truth is, a lot of people are buying this cartridge because they think the bullet looks mean......which is not a good evaluator of performance. In that regard, it is much like Winchester's "mistake" of marketing an earlier JHP under the name of "Black Talon". The problem with such marketing is that it draws attention......from everybody. That's fine if you're trying to sell a better ironing board. But nobody is out there just looking for reasons to limit the ownership/use of ironing boards. When you market "meanness" in the firearms world, it isn't gun owners who get upset by it and try to do something against it; it is the people who are trying to trample our rights who are looking for any reason whatsoever to raise a protest in the sympathetic media. That is attention we don't need. Wise as serpents, quiet as doves, and all that. If this "revolutionary" bullet design was all that and a bag of chips, professionals would be carrying it. They're not. Why? Unproven performance, and questions of liability. If they're not carrying it, you shouldn't either.

Long post, I know, but people who are new to CHL may read this and be making their purchasing decisions guided in part by the contents of this thread. Let wisdom prevail, and foolishness die out.

[Charlies.Contingency]

Long post, I know, but people who are new to CHL may read this and be making their purchasing decisions guided in part by the contents of this thread. Let wisdom prevail, and foolishness die out.

I'm grateful to have such good info on my thread, but you ought to make your own "sticky" thread informing people about ammunition. You do a much better then I! If not just for my on informing, this post was to help others learn or refreshen on the topic of ammunition choices for concealed carry.

P.S. The only reason I have Zombie Max as stated before, was and is due to the availability of ammunition. But my paranoid mind is telling me I should load that XD(M) of my with regular red tips instead of green, but that's my own decision.

Again, thank you "The Annoyed Man."

[Skiprr]

I don't see ball ammo as a choice. It is the ammo of choice for the masses; poor, misinformed, military, & mouse guns.

But I did specify preferred carry ammunition, as in for concealed carry. All of us here should know that ball ammunition is more dangerous to 3rd parties in a conflict than anything else.

Not necessarily. DRJoker did mention mouse guns. There are some very experienced folks out there who might well prefer ball ammo for a tiny .380 ACP or .32 ACP. (I will go so far as saying that I hope on one carries a .25 ACP; personally, I'd rather have a .22 WMR than a .25.) I don't know anyone who carries a 9×18mm Makarov, but that would also be a candidate for ball ammo, IMHO.

In fact, your first post to kick-off this thread linked to a post that extensively used information from Dr. Gary Roberts, and he said this about .380 ACP: "All of the .380 ACP JHP loads we have tested...exhibited inconsistent, unacceptable terminal performance for law enforcement back-up and off duty self-defense use due to inadequate penetration or inadequate expansion. Stick with FMJ for .380 ACP..."

Absolutely not starting a caliber war here. In fact, my BUG of last resort is a .32 ACP Seecamp, and I carry ball ammo in it. It certainly ain't my preferred carry, but sometimes there are situations where I'd rather have that than nothing...and it will leave a mark if I have to use it at bad-breath distance.

For 9mm Parabellum and larger, I agree a quality hollow point that shoots well in your gun is the way to go. But there are valid reasons where someone might use ball.