Bill of Sale

[G26ster]

The seller has zero legal risk as long as they don't knowingly sell to a felon or a person residing from out of State.

What appears to be happening though, is some folks are taking it apon themselves to determine who has the right to buy a gun.

Simply checking their DL, to ensure they are not from out of state, IS determining their right to buy your gun.

[carlson1]

I do not deal with 10% of people I have not dealt with before first off.

Second you are not the only one with a pistol for sale or one who wants to buy one. I just shake hands, smile and walk away.

[77346]

Then you can buy/sell with someone other than myself.


I guess we won't be doing business any time soon then...

You have NO legal reason to have my DL info, nor I yours. It's begging for ID theft, and provides no real "protection".


All I want is a document that says I bought this firearm from somebody else... and that somebody else is a real person that can be tracked if need be. Don't want to call it Bill of Sale? Fine, then call it receipt, transfer letter, what ever you want.

Folks, ya'll need to educate yourselves w/regards to the LEGAL REQUIREMENTS to buy/sell a gun - at the rate you're going, the anti's are gonna be able to pass all kinds of new regulations/restrictions, and many here will happily help 'em!

I don't claim to be an expert, but I don't buy stuff from an unknown party without some sort of documentation on the transaction... and I would extend the same courtesy if/when I sell something. I don't think that in any way is helping the anti's in passing "all kinds of new regulations/restrictions"... it's a private transaction between two willing parties that is been documented as a condition of one of the parties. If the buyer/seller are legal, then exchange goods/funds, sign and that's the end of it.

But let's agree to disagree...

[Jumping Frog]

I don't claim to be an expert, but I don't buy stuff from an unknown party without some sort of documentation on the transaction...

You've never bought stuff at a garage sale? I picked up a bicycle for one of my kids that way for $25. I also bought a desk once that I reused as a loading bench for $5. Bought a fair number of tools over the years. My wife has bought more garage sale stuff over the years than we had room to fit in the house.

I've also bought and sold things on craigslist before.

Never had receipts for any of that stuff.

I don't view buying a gun from a private party as any different than buying a used bicycle, washing machine, or lawn mower.

[carlson1]

[03Lightningrocks]

Simply checking their DL, to ensure they are not from out of state, IS determining their right to buy your gun.

You have a good point. Just off the top of my head, I am not remembering ever asking anyone for such proof. But.... I have sold so many personal weapons over the years I can't swear to it. Now that you have me thinking about it, I won't do it in the future for sure!! You are absolutely correct!! When two people who both claim to reside in the same state make a personal firearm transaction, asking for such proof is not required by law on private party sales and absolutely infringes on our RKBA. It is wrong for those of us that claim to be concerned with maintaining our RKBA when we create our own personal laws, designed to infringe on that very sacred right.

That being said, if I were purchasing a weapon, asking for a reciept and some proof of who I purchased from, to help ensure I were not buying stolen property, does not seem like an infringement of the RKBA to me. This would seem to fall into the same area of asking for a receipt when buying a TV from a private party for the same reasons.

I think this was more or less the point rothstein was trying to make. We seem to have it backwards around here. We should be more concerned with ensuring we are not buying a stolen weapon than who we are selling the weapon to.

[WildBill]

That being said, if I were purchasing a weapon, asking for a reciept and some proof of who I purchased from, to help ensure I were not buying stolen property, does not seem like an infringement of the RKBA to me. This would seem to fall into the same area of asking for a receipt when buying a TV from a private party for the same reasons.

[77346]

You've never bought stuff at a garage sale?

No, I haven''t... but I think that's a bit different... worse case, if you buy some hot item at a garage sale and somehow it's found on your possession, you can say "I got it at a garage sale... 123 Elm St., old nice lady, 80's, blue hair, 5'4", glasses"

I've also bought and sold things on craigslist before.

I once bought a guitar from a Craiglist ad... the seller showed proof of ownership (a receipt from Guitar Center) and I kept a print out of the ad for my records. The other used stuff I buy is from eBay, Amazon, Gun Broker, etc. (and there's a transaction record for that).

I don't view buying a gun from a private party as any different than buying a used bicycle, washing machine, or lawn mower.

I don't view buying a gun, fine jewelry, or a collectible guitar the same as a used bicycle, etc. unless I am buying from someone I know.

[RoyGBiv]

I think it's called "freedom." A person has the right not to provide information that isn't required by law, and a person has the right to ask for that information, as long as it doesn't violate a law. Simple. You don't want a bill of sale, then don't do business with anyone that asks for one. Doesn't mean they're ignorant, and your desire not to provide that information doesn't out weigh their desire to have it. Just MHO.

I think you all have it backwards. I want a bill of sale when i buy a gun, especially a used one in a private sale. It does help cover me if there turns out to be something wrong with the gun. I don't see how it helps the seller, but I can see it protecting the buyer.

with BOTH of the above.

Now ah'm REALLY confused!!! In what possible way does it "protect" the buyer?!??

If I buy a stolen gun, or one that later turns out to have been used in a crime (long shot, but possible), when the police ask me when, where, and from whom I acquired that gun, I want to have a clear answer. How many times have you heard/read about serial numbers being run during a traffic stop? Don't tell me it'll never happen. I would NEVER buy a private sale weapon without documenting clearly the sellers information, the date and time of the transaction and getting the seller to sign a sales receipt. I'm also not going to put my freedom at risk because some unscrupulous seller decided to report their gun stolen after they sold it to me.

You are entitled to feel and behave otherwise. Rest assured that I think you are as careless as you think I am an idiot.

And.... I don't care a single hoot whether it's "a legal document" in anyone's opinion. I've put my signature on, literally, billions of dollars worth of contracts. Not a single one was notarized and according to every lawyer I've talked with about it, every one of them became a legally binding contract as soon as it was signed by both parties to the deal.

[tbrown]

If the gun turns out to be stolen, the seller has the cash. It's the buyer who has to worry.

[alvins]

i think its interesting people are comparing buying and selling a gun with garage sale junk.talk about saying their is no difference between an apple and orange.


since when does somthing have to be notorised to be a "legal document". when you sign for your credit card receit that is a legal document; i dont see the cashier busting out their notary stamp.

[G26ster]

Other arguments about a Bill of Sale aside, but my memory is hazy after I took Business Law 40 years ago. But, as I recall, even a paperless cash sale is a legal contract between a buyer and seller. An offer to sell has been made by the seller, and the offer accepted by the buyer, and consideration has been exchanged. Maybe my memory is faulty.

[77346]

fully with RoyGBiv, tbrown and Alvins... and I fail to see the argument made about how a simple BoS opens the doors for the anti-gun establishment to impose more restrictions and regulations.

When I sell a gun, I clearly state that the parties will sign a BoS... so that is part of the "offer." If I'm buying one from an unknown party, I would ask for one, if the seller doesn't want to provide one, then I would move on.

[WildBill]

Other arguments about a Bill of Sale aside, but my memory is hazy after I took Business Law 40 years ago. But, as I recall, even a paperless cash sale is a legal contract between a buyer and seller. An offer to sell has been made by the seller, and the offer accepted by the buyer, and consideration has been exchanged. Maybe my memory is faulty.

Your memory may be faulty about some things, but a paperless sale is a legal contract. My desire to have a bill of sale or other document has more to do with the dollar amount of the transaction rather than the item purchased.

[Sangiovese]

The great thing about a free market is that both buyers and sellers can set the terms within which they are willing to do business. If a seller wants a bill of sale and the buyer doesn't want to provide the information, then the buyer is free to look elsewhere. Same if the buyer is the one who wants a bill of sale and the seller is reluctant to provide it.

I don't think that either position is unreasonable.

I do think that if the bill of sale issue is a dealbreaker for you (on either side of the issue) then you should be up front about that while negotiating the terms of the sale in order to avoid wasting people's time.