Unlicensed open carry in Texas: a proposal

[Liberty]

You mean that "if you are going to start shooting, shoot me first" sign on your hip?

Any cites or personal experiences to back this overused myth up?????


Dan

Wouldn't logic dictate that the Police officer or open carrying citizen would be the first to be targeted by a BG robbing a place? I understand that most Postal shooters and Armed robbers aren't the brightest folks on the block, but it seems to me that most of them would understand the importance of taking out the obviously armed out first rather than latter.

[frankie_the_yankee]

The concept of tactical surprise has been well established for thousands of years. It has been used by everyone from Hannibal to Alexander, to Tojo, Rommel, and MacArthur.

If it was good enough for them, it's good enough for me.

For reasons I cannot fathom, many OC advocates deny the existence of this concept, which they tend to catagorize as a "myth".

The only hypothesis I can come up with is that some are so in love with the idea of OC that they do not allow any conflicting information or thought to intrude into their world view.

I have found that there is no point whatsoever in arguing about it. The issue appears to go beyond logic.

[boomerang]

I have found that there is no point whatsoever in arguing about it. The issue appears to go beyond logic.

That's true. Look how requests for examples and statistics are ignored by people claiming their opinion is obviously correct.

[KBCraig]

You mean that "if you are going to start shooting, shoot me first" sign on your hip?

Any cites or personal experiences to back this overused myth up?????

Wouldn't logic dictate that the Police officer or open carrying citizen would be the first to be targeted by a BG robbing a place?

Logic would dictate that they would go rob a different place.

[KBCraig]

Your licensed OC list is not fully accurate, at least in terms of the real world. ...
In MA, if you're not a uniformed guard, not at a gun club, or not hunting (MA allows for this in some circumstances), it's pretty much the same deal as RI.

I suspect but am not certain that licensed OC in some of the other states on your list such as NJ, CT, MD, and HI involve similar narrow circumstances.

I said as much in my post:

Granted, some of those (like Massachusetts and New Jersey) are may-issue at the discretion of the local authorities, and they can revoke a license for any reason, or for no reason at all.

[frankie_the_yankee]

I have found that there is no point whatsoever in arguing about it. The issue appears to go beyond logic.

That's true. Look how requests for examples and statistics are ignored by people claiming their opinion is obviously correct.

If someone had a Lexis-Nexis subscription, they could probably come up with a number of cases where banks were robbed and the uniformed (and OCing) guard was whacked from the get go. Or if not whacked, instances where the guard was immediately accosted at gunpoint and taken out of the fight (immobilized, tied up, etc.) before the BG's turned their attention to completing the robbery.

But that service is expensive and I can't justify a subscription simply to convince OCers of something that has been true for thousands of years.

Coming up with cases where civilian OCers were targeted would be much more difficult because non-LEO OC itself is so rare. The probability of something happening involving two dependent events is obtained by multiplying the probabilities of each of the events. So with non-LEO OC being very rare, and armed robberies also being rare, an armed robbery in the presence of a non-LEO OCer will by nature be a super rare event.

OC fans frequently misinterpret the effect of these rare probabilities to create a spurious line of "reasoning" where they conclude that an OCer is no more likely to be selected as a first target than a bag of potatoes that might happen to be in the same room.

To avoid fallacies like that, people who which to analyze rare events in a serious manner frequently employ properly constructed "thought experiments".

As an example, meteorite falls are very rare events. And picnic tables occupy a very small fraction of the surface of the earth. So if we wanted to estimate what would happen if a meteorite struck a picnic table, we could scour Lexis-Nexis for reports of same, (most likely fruitlessly) or we could use what we know about the likely range of masses and velocities of meteorites and the strength of picnic tables to perform a thought experiment.

FWIW, Einstein used thought experiments to illustrate his theories of General and Special Relativity.

[frankie_the_yankee]

I have found that there is no point whatsoever in arguing about it. The issue appears to go beyond logic.

That's true. Look how requests for examples and statistics are ignored by people claiming their opinion is obviously correct.

See if you can dig up the "statistics" that Hannibal used when deciding how to deploy his forces at the Battle of Cannae.

Or maybe he just used his brain.

[flintknapper]

However, it is very rare for anyone to be seen open-carrying in the larger cities like Salt Lake. Even though it is lawful, on the rare occasions when people do, the police almost always get a "man with a gun" call and they have to respond. If no crime is being committed, then the person is allowed to leave, but they were temporarily detained nonetheless.

I have traveled extensively throughout the country for 25 years or so and I can count on one hand the number of people I have seen open-carrying without a badge on their belt. Yes, it is legal in a number of states, but it sure doesn't seem to be commonplace. There is a reason for that.

Chas.

I hope you don't get flamed, dumped on and shouted down like I did when I made essentially the same observations based on my fairly extensive travel across the USA.

I don't recall you ever being "flamed, dumped on, or shouted down" on this site for your opinions on this subject.

Did I miss something?

[longtooth]

No sir I dont believe you did.

[stevie_d_64]

You mean that "if you are going to start shooting, shoot me first" sign on your hip?

Prove (your tongue and cheek comment) where that is a statistical fact, in the many states that (for lack of a better term) "allow" open carry, and maybe I'll jump into that boat...

See, we are smarter than your average criminal...Where we understand the deterrent effect of firearms when they are used for lawful defensive purposes, IF "we" were to turn to the dark-side and begin a life of crime, we know we would be looking for people like us first...Whereas, the common criminal would probably not give it much thought before it was too late...

My position is well known...I would like to see it become an option to do so in this state, whether it creates problems or not with other people (who are against RKBA) is not a concern of mine, and never will be...We will govern ourselves accordingly, and be excellent ambassadors to the Right to Keep and Bear Arms...

If you choose to open carry, great...If not, fabulous...

[stevie_d_64]

Logic would dictate that they would go rob a different place.

Bingo!

[frankie_the_yankee]

You mean that "if you are going to start shooting, shoot me first" sign on your hip?

Prove (your tongue and cheek comment) where that is a statistical fact, in the many states that (for lack of a better term) "allow" open carry, and maybe I'll jump into that boat...

Before someone could do that, there would have to be a place where OC was commonplace. Otherwise, you run into the probability issue I pointed out above.

Of course, since there is no such place, (a hunting camp where there are 3 people and 2 of them are OCing doesn't count) we are forced to use our brains instead.

[cedjunior]

I have found that there is no point whatsoever in arguing about it. The issue appears to go beyond logic.

That's true. Look how requests for examples and statistics are ignored by people claiming their opinion is obviously correct.

See if you can dig up the "statistics" that Hannibal used when deciding how to deploy his forces at the Battle of Cannae.

Or maybe he just used his brain.

I think there is a difference between a large offensive military campaign and one individual protecting their self in a defensive situation.

And that the problem here. Some people on here speak of "tactical advantage" and all that like they're going to run into the cast of the movie "Heat" robbing a bank in some organized paramilitary fashion. And you're not. The every day criminals out there are predators, and like all predators they look for opportunity, for the weakest, for their greatest chance at being successful in their pursuit of their prey. And once a criminal knows that their chances are that much lower, they'll find an easier target. If gazelles all the sudden grew teeth and claws, I'm sure the lions would rather find something else to eat.

[frankie_the_yankee]

I have never used the term "tactical advantage".

I have referred to the concept of tactical surprise. And the application of this concept is not limited to large military campaigns.

[dac1842]

I get to add the perspective from the stand point of a an ex cop and now a civiliian with a CHL. The CHL is a much better position to be in for a few reasons. 1- The perp does not know if I am carrying or not. If I advertise that I am carrying i.e. open carry , the suspect knows I have a weapon and then decides he can avoid me which is unlikely or to just shoot me first to avoid a confrontation. If he does not know I am carrying then I have the last element of surprise on my side.
Second, as an CHL holder I know that myself and all the others have been through the state and federal background check.While this does not guarantee that someone with a CHL won't go to the dark side, I know the odds of that happening are less than 5%. Unlicensed open carry would negate that safety check and all the bozo's that have been rejected for CHL's now get to carry a gun... that does not give me a warm and fuzzy feeling.

I have been to states that allow open carry (Arizona), The police I have talked to there would much prefer a system of checks and balances rather than have a bunch of unregulated, unchecked folks walking around with guns.

Not to mention that has a CHL holder I can be in a crowd of folks and dont have a bunch of people staring at my weapon, dont have stupid people asking me if it my gun is loaded or real, I dont have kids trying to touch it and so on. CHL is the only way to go