What happens when you grab the slide of firing gun

[ScooterSissy]

Vocalizing the word "bang" and pulling a trigger are not the same. Pulling a trigger is quicker and easier, physically and mentally, especially under stress as a reflex gross motor function.

I doubt it. I suspect you're injecting personal opinion. Speaking is done far more often than pulling a trigger, but I suspect either action is virtually the same speed. Are you speaking hypothetically, or have you actually done this exercise?

[A-R]

Vocalizing the word "bang" and pulling a trigger are not the same. Pulling a trigger is quicker and easier, physically and mentally, especially under stress as a reflex gross motor function.

I doubt it. I suspect you're injecting personal opinion. Speaking is done far more often than pulling a trigger, but I suspect either action is virtually the same speed. Are you speaking hypothetically, or have you actually done this exercise?

Done it. Multiple times. In training with other highly skilled and trained persons from both sides of the altercation.

ETA: caveat that not every idiot who might point a gun at you within arms reach is skilled enough to pull of the retention method I described earlier. Element if surprise, action vs reaction, speed, skill, etc all come into play.

Just a caution that even for the most skilled person, attempting to disarm someone pointing a gun at you is a last resort with a broad range of potentially bad outcomes.

[ScooterSissy]

One thing those that say that a disarm would be too slow and it would be easy to pull the trigger is that "action beats reaction". He has to make the decision to pull the trigger AFTER you have made the decision to move AND gave indication that you are moving. So the more you telegraph the earlier in your movement he will pick it up. Some of it is technique and repetition that gives you confidence, so you are not just waving at the gun pointed at you.

Remember the "slap game", we all (or at least a lot of us) played when we were kids? You put your palms down on another persons (defender palms down, aggressor palms up), and they try to slap your hands before you pull away. You can't pull away unless they actually move to slap yours.

Even though the "aggressor" has to do far more action - flip their hands and slap vs simply pulling away - the aggressor wins most of the time; and that's because of the very thing you're talking about. Reaction is much slower than action.

But, arguing hypotheticals is tiring, especially when you've seen the whole thing in person. Even if it wasn't a move in the defender's favor, I'd still try it if someone had a gun pulled on me like that. I remember an old Bill Cosby line - "If I'm on an elevator that crashing to the bottom, I don't care what the experts say, right before it hits, I'm going to jump up". It falls in the "what do you have to lose" category.

[ScooterSissy]

Vocalizing the word "bang" and pulling a trigger are not the same. Pulling a trigger is quicker and easier, physically and mentally, especially under stress as a reflex gross motor function.

I doubt it. I suspect you're injecting personal opinion. Speaking is done far more often than pulling a trigger, but I suspect either action is virtually the same speed. Are you speaking hypothetically, or have you actually done this exercise?

Done it. Multiple times. In training with other highly skilled and trained persons from both sides of the altercation.

ETA: caveat that not every idiot who might point a gun at you within arms reach is skilled enough to pull of the retention method I described earlier. Element if surprise, action vs reaction, speed, skill, etc all come into play.

Just a caution that even for the most skilled person, attempting to disarm someone pointing a gun at you is a last resort with a broad range of potentially bad outcomes.

Well, if nothing else, you've at least moved from the "all they have to do" stuff to "not every (one)... is skilled enough to pull off"...

[A-R]

Fair enough

[jmra]

What works in "training" doesn't always translate to real life. That stuff does work well in the movies though.
I think I'll continue to develop good situational awareness so that I can avoid getting a gun pressed to my head.

[MechAg94]

One thing those that say that a disarm would be too slow and it would be easy to pull the trigger is that "action beats reaction". He has to make the decision to pull the trigger AFTER you have made the decision to move AND gave indication that you are moving. So the more you telegraph the earlier in your movement he will pick it up. Some of it is technique and repetition that gives you confidence, so you are not just waving at the gun pointed at you.

It may have been Mythbusters that did a test looking at old West style quick draw. The person who moved to draw first was usually the loser. I think it boils down to the person reacting had a specific reaction already set up in their mind that executed as soon as they saw movement. That is why the caveat was mentioned early in the thread about someone not prepared for a disarm move.

And I do agree that a quick physical action such as pulling the trigger is probably faster than saying "bang". If real guns are used, a snap cap might be a better choice than saying "bang". Maybe even use those paper caps from old cap guns placed under the hammer of a 1911.

Also, some people are just faster or have quicker reflexes.

[jimlongley]

One thing those that say that a disarm would be too slow and it would be easy to pull the trigger is that "action beats reaction". He has to make the decision to pull the trigger AFTER you have made the decision to move AND gave indication that you are moving. So the more you telegraph the earlier in your movement he will pick it up. Some of it is technique and repetition that gives you confidence, so you are not just waving at the gun pointed at you.

Remember the "slap game", we all (or at least a lot of us) played when we were kids? You put your palms down on another persons (defender palms down, aggressor palms up), and they try to slap your hands before you pull away. You can't pull away unless they actually move to slap yours.

Even though the "aggressor" has to do far more action - flip their hands and slap vs simply pulling away - the aggressor wins most of the time; and that's because of the very thing you're talking about. Reaction is much slower than action.

But, arguing hypotheticals is tiring, especially when you've seen the whole thing in person. Even if it wasn't a move in the defender's favor, I'd still try it if someone had a gun pulled on me like that. I remember an old Bill Cosby line - "If I'm on an elevator that crashing to the bottom, I don't care what the experts say, right before it hits, I'm going to jump up". It falls in the "what do you have to lose" category.

I always wondered just how the person inside the falling elevator was going to determine "right before it hits"?

We called our version of the "Slap Game" "Flinch" and it was a little meaner and more telling in terms of reaction times. Two people stand an appropriate distance apart. One holds his hands "in prayer" in front of himself at just above waist height with elbows bent and touching the body. The other holds his hands behind himself. The aggressor swings at the hands of the defender and if he scores a slap, the defender stays defender and they go over again, if he misses, they switch and the defender becomes the aggressor and v/v. The defender's hands must stay together, the aggressor can swing or not, or feint and if the defender flinches and moves his hands more than one hand's width in any direction, or they are separated, the aggressor gets a free slap. In our high school it was not unusual to see kids walking down the hall after lunch with bruises and cuts on their hands. It was considered to be a bad omen if you lost "Rock Paper Scissors" and had to defend first, as it was well known that the first aggressor had a big advantage, very few were able to beat the slap even when it was coming all the way from behind the other person, usually it was just a good guess as to when the next slap was coming.

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Years ago as an RSO I had a shooter whose gun had "jammed" and would not fire. The young lady in question had released the gun with her left hand and still holding it downrange had raised her hand to let me know she had a problem. I approached her from behind and left, as I had been taught in the past, and reached around her to take the gun with my left hand. Unknown to me, and lesson learned, when she lowered her hand she "bumped" the slide and apparntly put it into battery. She still had her grip with her right hand and had cleared her trigger finger when I looked before going around her. While I reached for the gun, she (probably) put her finger on the trigger and fired. When the gun fired I had a firm grip around the slide and just in front of the trigger guard. Due to others firing on the line, I was not really aware that the gun had discharged until I noticed the mild powder burn on the outside of my left hand, I thought that she had just flinched away from contact with me. The slide never cycled. After that time I tried a few experiments with doing that on purpose, and while I would not make a general practice of it, particularly with a .45, I would see gripping the slide as safer than letting someone shoot me.

One time I did not have a tight enough grip on the slide and the front sight gouged my hand, but the empty smokestacked and jammed the gun, a similarly desirable result.

[rivertripper]

He stovepiped something in the chamber and that took the gun out of battery.
Then he grabs the slide over the top as if this latter action kept the gun
from going off.

A range owner showed me once that if (the person on the wrong end of the gun) pushed
the slide back enough to take the gun out of battery, and then the trigger was pulled, the gun would not go off.

Am I missing something?