AR Pistol

[Tank]

The addition of a vertical foregrip is not legal and would change the weapon's designation from an AR pistol to a short barreled rifle.

This was incorrect information you were giving, sorry that your feeling were hurt.

[The Annoyed Man]

Looking at Tank's letter (thanks for posting that, by the way), the paragraph about assembly and barreling begs a series of questions. On page 2 it says:

"With respect to barreling and the assembly of pistols, if the individuals utilize a receiver that has never been barreled as a rifle action, they may lawfully assemble a pistol. Such an assembled pistol would constitute a "firearm" as defined by the GCA. If an individual utilizes a receiver that has already been barreled as a rifle action in the assembly of a pistol, such an assembled pistol would constitute a "weapon made from a rifle" as defined in the NFA." [see attachment below....]

clip from page 2 of Tank's BATFE letter

1. For NFA and GCA purposes, does "receiver" include both the upper and lower halves of an AR15 assembly, or does it include only the lower half with the serial number?
2. If #1 includes both the upper and lower halves in the definition, why is the lower the only one with the serial number, and the only one which requires an FFL to transfer, while I can mail order any assembled upper or upper parts I want without including an FFL in the transaction?
3. If #1 does NOT include both halves in the definition, what is to stop me from having a pistol lower with one of those Sig (or other similar) braces, and multiple uppers with rifle, carbine, and pistol length barrels with appropriate optics?
4. Regardless of whether #1 includes both halves in the definition, If I bought a stripped lower at a gunshow, and I assembled it into a rifle, shot it for a while, and then I later rebarreled the upper receiver to 7", removed the rifle/carbine buttstock and reconfigured it as a pistol, possibly with a Sig or other brand of brace, how on earth is BATFE going to know what the original use was, and whether it was modified or not subsequent to that? After all, a declaration of intended use was not a part of the original purchase transaction.
5. Last question..... Hypothetical Scenario: I have an SKB double rifle case, inside of which are found two complete upper assemblies, and two complete lower assemblies, none of which is actually mated to the other:
   
   1. an assembled AR "pistol" lower, minus any fancy brace, with just the usual padded buffer tube, assembled using a stripped lower purchased from an FFL at a gunshow.
   2. an assembled AR rifle/carbine lower, with a 6 position collapsible buttstock, assembled using a stripped lower purchased FTF from a friend across town, which was originally purchased as a stripped lower from a local gunstore.
   3. an assembled AR upper with a 7" barrel and a Magpul AFG.
   4. an assembled AR upper with a 16 M4 profile barrel and a vertical foreward grip.
   Is there anything illegal about this collection in this rifle case? After all, it IS possible to configure an unregistered SBR by mating the the pistol upper to the carbine lower........however, that is not the condition in which they are found. Would the legal situation be any different if the carbine and pistol receiver halves were already properly mated together into a pistol and a carbine when found?

Can someone with practical experience.....preferably with an FFL....tell me what the law says in this kind of situation? Speculation is useless because I simply don't trust legal authorities to not interpret the situation to my disadvantage, even though the law appears to be vague here, and I have not done something overtly (and obviously deliberately) illegal.

And just to reiterate, this is a hypothetical scenario. I do not own any ARs of barrel length less than 16".

[DaveT]

The addition of a vertical foregrip is not legal and would change the weapon's designation from an AR pistol to a short barreled rifle.

This was incorrect information you were giving, sorry that your feeling were hurt.

Not a problem, Tank.

[J Wilson]

Check #12 on chart.I think DaveT is correct

[DaveT]

Check #12 on chart.I think DaveT is correct

J Wilson,

In my post that tank wants to correct me on, I was totally correct about the angled foregrip being legal. That is verified on the chart I posted earlier.

However, I also made a statement that a vertical foregrip was illegal.... and that's the part of what I said that Tank corrected me on. Actually, he and I are both right.

The regs and the chart state that an vertical foregrip is illegal, UNLESS the overall length of the AR-Pistol is OVER 26 inches.

I was referring to what I know about my AR-pistol, which is well under 26 inches in overall length.... so for my weapon, what I stated is right, a vertical foregrip is illegal.

What I failed to take into consideration, and what Tank is right about, is AR-pistols that exceed 26 inches in overall length are legal with a vertical foregrip.

I should have been more specific, that might have avoided all this fuss. I'm an old guy, but even after a lifetime of weapon use in both the military and as a Police Officer, I will be the first to admit that I am no expert, and certainly do not know it all. What I am confident about is that there are always folks that know more than I do, and I respect them for their knowledge.

And just for the record, I do not get my feelings hurt over internet stuff. There's way too many more important things in life to worry about.

[LAYGO]

And just for the record, I do not get my feelings hurt over internet stuff. There's way too many more important things in life to worry about.

[carlson1]

Check #12 on chart.I think DaveT is correct

J Wilson,

In my post that tank wants to correct me on, I was totally correct about the angled foregrip being legal. That is verified on the chart I posted earlier.

However, I also made a statement that a vertical foregrip was illegal.... and that's the part of what I said that Tank corrected me on. Actually, he and I are both right.

The regs and the chart state that an vertical foregrip is illegal, UNLESS the overall length of the AR-Pistol is OVER 26 inches.

I was referring to what I know about my AR-pistol, which is well under 26 inches in overall length.... so for my weapon, what I stated is right, a vertical foregrip is illegal.

What I failed to take into consideration, and what Tank is right about, is AR-pistols that exceed 26 inches in overall length are legal with a vertical foregrip.

I should have been more specific, that might have avoided all this fuss. I'm an old guy, but even after a lifetime of weapon use in both the military and as a Police Officer, I will be the first to admit that I am no expert, and certainly do not know it all. What I am confident about is that there are always folks that know more than I do, and I respect them for their knowledge.

And just for the record, I do not get my feelings hurt over internet stuff. There's way too many more important things in life to worry about.

OK After reading this I went and remeasured my AR pistol. My pistol is 28 1/2 inches long. That is including the KX5 flash hider. I am assuming that it is 26" without the flash hider.

I do not have the foregrip, but I did install a hand STOP. Is the hand stop legal? I do not see that on the chart that was posted.

This stuff can get sticky.

[Tank]

Check #12 on chart.I think DaveT is correct

J Wilson,

In my post that tank wants to correct me on, I was totally correct about the angled foregrip being legal. That is verified on the chart I posted earlier.

However, I also made a statement that a vertical foregrip was illegal.... and that's the part of what I said that Tank corrected me on. Actually, he and I are both right.

The regs and the chart state that an vertical foregrip is illegal, UNLESS the overall length of the AR-Pistol is OVER 26 inches.

I was referring to what I know about my AR-pistol, which is well under 26 inches in overall length.... so for my weapon, what I stated is right, a vertical foregrip is illegal.

What I failed to take into consideration, and what Tank is right about, is AR-pistols that exceed 26 inches in overall length are legal with a vertical foregrip.

I should have been more specific, that might have avoided all this fuss. I'm an old guy, but even after a lifetime of weapon use in both the military and as a Police Officer, I will be the first to admit that I am no expert, and certainly do not know it all. What I am confident about is that there are always folks that know more than I do, and I respect them for their knowledge.

And just for the record, I do not get my feelings hurt over internet stuff. There's way too many more important things in life to worry about.

OK After reading this I went and remeasured my AR pistol. My pistol is 28 1/2 inches long. That is including the KX5 flash hider. I am assuming that it is 26" without the flash hider.

I do not have the foregrip, but I did install a hand STOP. Is the hand stop legal? I do not see that on the chart that was posted.

This stuff can get sticky.

Yeah, it's w/o the flash hider (unless it's pinned).

I don't recall off the top of my head on the hand stop (magpul?), although I do recall seeing a few pictures of AR pistols less than 26" on AR15.com with hand stops. I'll ask over there. Common sense would say it would be regarded the same as the Magpul AFG... but the NFA itself doesn't make sense.

[carlson1]

Thanks. I went to AR15.com and read some, but I did not see anything that applied to the hand stop.

I did not realize how quick you could get over 26" while building an AR pistol.

[grim-bob]

[*]Regardless of whether #1 includes both halves in the definition, If I bought a stripped lower at a gunshow, and I assembled it into a rifle, shot it for a while, and then I later rebarreled the upper receiver to 7", removed the rifle/carbine buttstock and reconfigured it as a pistol, possibly with a Sig or other brand of brace, how on earth is BATFE going to know what the original use was, and whether it was modified or not subsequent to that? After all, a declaration of intended use was not a part of the original purchase transaction.


[*]Last question..... Hypothetical Scenario: I have an SKB double rifle case, inside of which are found two complete upper assemblies, and two complete lower assemblies, none of which is actually mated to the other:

1. an assembled AR "pistol" lower, minus any fancy brace, with just the usual padded buffer tube, assembled using a stripped lower purchased from an FFL at a gunshow.
2. an assembled AR rifle/carbine lower, with a 6 position collapsible buttstock, assembled using a stripped lower purchased FTF from a friend across town, which was originally purchased as a stripped lower from a local gunstore.
3. an assembled AR upper with a 7" barrel and a Magpul AFG.
4. an assembled AR upper with a 16 M4 profile barrel and a vertical foreward grip.

Is there anything illegal about this collection in this rifle case? After all, it IS possible to configure an unregistered SBR by mating the the pistol upper to the carbine lower........however, that is not the condition in which they are found. Would the legal situation be any different if the carbine and pistol receiver halves were already properly mated together into a pistol and a carbine when found?[/list]

Can someone with practical experience.....preferably with an FFL....tell me what the law says in this kind of situation? Speculation is useless because I simply don't trust legal authorities to not interpret the situation to my disadvantage, even though the law appears to be vague here, and I have not done something overtly (and obviously deliberately) illegal.

And just to reiterate, this is a hypothetical scenario. I do not own any ARs of barrel length less than 16".

You have the same questions as I do. I have several lowers which were specifically listed as receivers and not a rifle or pistol on the forms. I did that thinking I might decide to build a pistol some day....

1: So when I make a pistol how do they know that one of the "receivers" is now locked in as a pistol. I'm an upstanding guy but clearly they could try to argue otherwise as it relates to that receiver.

2: Then in general I have a number or AR parts and guns. If I have one receiver built as a pistol and have several pistol uppers, several complete rifles lowers, several complete rifles and lots of "parts" including VFG and AFG..... So how is that perceived. Can the infer intent? I don't necessarily trust them not to. So do I now need to have a separate safe for the short vs long components?

[Seabear]

Grim-Bob

I have the same thoughts. I have multiple "parts" as well. I know what can go where once complete, but who's to say they might accuse me of my extra "parts" being for construction of evil illegal firearms?

On a side note, My never before used lower, a JBO Spartan, now has a parts kit installed as well as the pistol tube and brace. The 10.5" Anderson Upper will be in Monday and I picked up a Griffin Armament Muzzle Break and Blast Shield. Should be wicked.

[Andeson]

I'm currently building a 9mm AR pistol with a 7.5" barrel. I love the AR pistol concept, just not in .223 as the performance sucks out of the really short barrels and they are very loud with incredible muzzle blast. If you live in a non-SBR state, A 9mm AR is probably the best thing going for a PDW. If you can afford it, Double Diamond makes a high-quality 9mm AR lower that takes Glock mags!!!!

[PBR]

Thanks. I went to AR15.com and read some, but I did not see anything that applied to the hand stop.

I did not realize how quick you could get over 26" while building an AR pistol.

will try to find the paperwork i had saved one another pc or will try to find it online again but a hand stop is legal just like the angled foregrip is legal -- the vertical grips or any vertical attachment to which you can wrap your hand around is illegal -- from what i seen and gather is the angled foregrip and hand stops are for horizontal control which they dont seem to care about -- its the vertical control they worry about, even though ar's dont really have vertical control issues

[PBR]

Grim-Bob

I have the same thoughts. I have multiple "parts" as well. I know what can go where once complete, but who's to say they might accuse me of my extra "parts" being for construction of evil illegal firearms?

i asked a leo friend of mine on the swat team this couple years ago as he knows a lot of the laws pretty good. his reply was if its not together its not completed but if the gun has ever been checked before they say if its a rifle or pistol when checking the serial so some record could be kept maybe. also when you buy the lower if they asked pistol, rifle and it was noted on the ffl paperwork. other than that they dont know if it was a pistol or rifle lower, that is if just the lower was purchased new by itself.

[Scott B.]

When you buy a stripped lower from an FFL it's recorded in the Acquisition and Disposition Book simply as a 'receiver'. Caliber is recorded if it's marked. However if it's a 'multi' then it's recorded as n/a for caliber.

On the 4473 Firearms Transaction Record the stripped lower is listed as 'other' as it is neither a pistol or a rifle. At least that's the way it's supposed to be.

Since Texas has no pistol registry, that makes it very simple for all of us. It only gets sticky if you take what was built as a rifle and convert it.

ATF Ruling 2011-4 lays out the case:
https://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-r ... 2011-4.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;