CHL and unarmed attacker

[Javier730]

Hey guys.

Heres something that happened to me about 2 years ago. I stopped (with my son who was 4 at the time) at a Valero to fuel up and while walking in to pay, a guy stop in front of me to ask me for a few bucks for gas. I said "no man sorry" and walked around him. He then said "you dont have to be rude", I know I should of kept walking but I turned my head and said, "I wasnt being rude", and kept walking. He then started yelling using profanity and was saying he was going to beat me. I went inside and while standing in line I noticed he was sitting in his vehicle and there was a woman in the passenger and two other males in the backseat. I payed for my fuel and as I headed for the door I noticed he and his two buddies jumped out of the vehicle. I had no chl at the time and only had a kershaw leek with me. I could not risk getting into any confrontation especially with my son with me so I had to de-escalate the situation quickly. I walked towards my vehicle and they walked towards me. The main guy was raising his pants up and squaring off as if we were going to get in a street fight. I reached into my pocket and pulled out about $3 and held my hand out which he quickly grabbed. They then walked back to there truck and left. I felt like I was robbed. Thats what made me start looking into getting my chl.

I know deadly force can only be justified if your life is really in danger and you fear for your life, but at which point would an unarmed attacker be considered a threat to your life. How could you possibly know if they are just going to smack you around or crack your skull open on the concrete. Do you have to wait until you are literally getting your head caved in before you can justifiably use deadly force? What about if the attacker has not yet struck you yet but there are other factors that make you feel like you are really in danger? What about having a child with you?

Heres a few scenarios, would you guys draw you firearm in a situation like these?

1. 1 person squaring off and 2 of his buddies following close behind (situation described above)
2. 1 person squaring off but he is considerably larger than you
3. 1 person attacking you
4. 1 person kicking you while your down
5. Scenario 3 and 4 with multiple attackers
6. Are you reaction different in you have children with you?

Thanks.

[pancho]

It may be too late if you wait until they're kicking and stomping you.

[Jumping Frog]

You should read the presentation recently posted in these forums by HerbM: Avoiding Criminal Assaults -- Presentation at 17th TCHA

[cb1000rider]

I think you were robbed. You should have called the cops.
I would have drawn if I was with my son, without a doubt. Beyond that, I'd like to say that I would not use it unless I felt like it might get taken away.

Edit: For $3, I think you did better than I might have done... That was a good outcome, even if you second guess it.

[EEllis]

Make sure you have your phone with you at all times. It would have been real simple while you were safely inside to call 911 or even just have the clerk call in you specific case. I realize you may have gone back out since your son was there but even so it's something to show your desire to avoid trouble if you do have to use your chl. Also just saying "I've already called the cops" can also cause people to rethink actions. I think people are to worried about looking bad by calling the cops when suspicious. Not only could it help you, but also let the cops know what is going on and better able to watch for problems.

[jmra]

Make sure you have your phone with you at all times. It would have been real simple while you were safely inside to call 911 or even just have the clerk call in you specific case. I realize you may have gone back out since your son was there but even so it's something to show your desire to avoid trouble if you do have to use your chl. Also just saying "I've already called the cops" can also cause people to rethink actions. I think people are to worried about looking bad by calling the cops when suspicious. Not only could it help you, but also let the cops know what is going on and better able to watch for problems.

Once the other guys came out of the car I would have retreated to the store and called 911, especially if I didn't have a couple bucks in my pocket.

[SC1903A3]

I would never tell you what to do but, I would have drawn. Out numbered three to one I would have feared for my life. I'm a true believer with it comes to disparity of force. Google the term and you'll find plenty of articles on the subject. Massad Ayoob covers this and has testified in court concerning the subject.

[jmra]

I would never tell you what to do but, I would have drawn. Out numbered three to one I would have feared for my life. I'm a true believer with it comes to disparity of force. Google the term and you'll find plenty of articles on the subject. Massad Ayoob covers this and has testified in court concerning the subject.

Situational awareness should always be the first line of defense. Especially given the presence of a young child, after the initial exchange I would have stayed in the store for several minutes to see if the car left. If it didn't, I would call the police and let them deal with the situation. As CHL holders we must be smarter than the criminals. Avoiding a second encounter and not needing to draw your firearm is a much cheaper and safer option.

[jbarn]

I would never tell you what to do but, I would have drawn. Out numbered three to one I would have feared for my life. I'm a true believer with it comes to disparity of force. Google the term and you'll find plenty of articles on the subject. Massad Ayoob covers this and has testified in court concerning the subject.

Situational awareness should always be the first line of defense. Especially given the presence of a young child, after the initial exchange I would have stayed in the store for several minutes to see if the car left. If it didn't, I would call the police and let them deal with the situation. As CHL holders we must be smarter than the criminals. Avoiding a second encounter and not needing to draw your firearm is a much cheaper and safer option.

Please post this again, in large, red letters.

OP, google "disparity of force"

[10mmillie]

I'm glad they took the $3 and left. Lots of good suggestions here. As soon as those three got out of that car it was Draw time. 3 on 1 is a fear for your life moment. There is no reason to wait until you are attacked to draw your weapon especially when you have a child with you.

[jimlongley]

Anyone else recall Gordon Hale III?

Disparity of force is not always inappropriate.

[AdioSS]

How do you really know if they are unarmed?

[jmra]

There is no reason to wait until you are attacked to draw your weapon

There is also no reason not to engage your brain before drawing your weapon. Situational awareness is your best friend and in the OPs situation should have kept the second encounter from ever occurring.

[jbarn]

Hey guys.



I know deadly force can only be justified if your life is really in danger and you fear for your life,

Thanks.

This is really important. Texas law makes no mention of your life being in danger or being in fear of your life in regards to using deadly force. Being in fear is no justification for using deadly force. You might feel fear when deadly force is justified; however, your fear or lack thereof is not justification for using deadly force.

Please study penal code sections 9.31 and 9.32.

Under the code, deadly force is justified when you meet all of the requirments of using force less than deadly force, AND when you reasonably believe the deadly force is immediately necessary to prevent the others use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force, or to prevent the IMMINENT commission of Murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, aggravated robbery, or aggravated kidnapping.

That's it. No mention of fear. Words and phrases like "imminent", "reasonably believe", and "immediately necessary" are important components of the law. A trier of fact will consider whether what you state you believed was reasonable considering the circumstances.

I have specific training and experience and I carry other tools besides a gun, I am 53 years old. Is reasonable for me the same as what is reasonable for an 80 year old woman? How about a Navy SEAL?