ditching the XDs45, looking at the Sig Carry Nightmare

[MoJo]

When you buy a new firearm that hasn't been on the market for at least a year you have to expect problems like the XDs and Shield have. I'm not too keen on being an unpaid beta tester.

[jmra]

When you buy a new firearm that hasn't been on the market for at least a year you have to expect problems like the XDs and Shield have. I'm not too keen on being an unpaid beta tester.

Learning this lesson the hard way. Don't plan on repeating the mistake.

[hpcatx]

Yet to send mine back to Springfield and not encouraged by this news. Their latest update from Friday doesn't say anything definitive either.

As we noted in last Friday's update, our testing of potential upgrade solutions has continued and we are pleased to tell you that we have made significant progress over the last seven days. We have now identified what we believe is our final upgrade solution and throughout this coming week we will be continuing with our thorough and exhaustive testing of that solution.

Springfield Recall Website

[surprise_i'm_armed]

This XDS recall is so disappointing. Even though it was a "new" gun when I bought it, it was
a Springer, so I figured they knew what they were doing. Guess not.

I haven't even gotten around to sending mine in to Springer, but the above comments seem to indicate I'm not
missing much.

Since the gun has known problems, I can't sell it to a pawnshop or to any person. They may need to rely on it
to protect themselves from harm.

Although I had relished the "2 guns on the body" carry style, since the XDS is out of service I'm just carrying my
Ruger with 2 mags. A 10 rounder & the 17 rounder, so with one in the chamber I've got 28 rounds with the one gun.

SIA

[schufflerbot]

My main issues with this recall are as follows:

They're labeling this as a 'voluntary' recall, however, the severity of a possible malfunction pretty much dictates that owners HAVE to send them in to be 'upgraded.' Heck, even the recall site itself includes the advice:
Q 'what should i do with my pistol?'
A 'stop using immediately and carefully unload your pistol.'

that doesn't sound voluntary to me.

second is their initial recall announcement stating, 'the recall should be completed within 30 days, here's an image showing what your upgraded pistol will look like.'

how could they know what the recall solution would look like if they hadn't even found the solution yet?!


this whole thing has turned me off to SA as a company entirely. i don't appreciate being lied to, much less over and over and over again.

[Teamless]

how could they know what the recall solution would look like if they hadn't even found the solution yet?!

This is one of my biggest issues with this recall.

I understand things sometimes do need to be recalled, but as many have said above, and even I have said, the recall itself is not a bad thing, but how they are handling it, is very bad.
They are also turning me off to them, and I have verbalized (ok, typed) this to them in the past week, how they are putting off many gun owners, when they are in the market for a new gun, SA will not be the first manufacturer that rolls off my tongue and probably wouldn't be in the top 3 or 4 to be honest.

And since us gun owners are the ones who get asked by newbies of what to buy, we are in the position to influence millions of gun purchases over the next 30 years or so.
All for 1 recall handled badly, they are jeopardizing literally billions of dollars of sales (thinking I buy a new gun probably every 6 months and I know i cannot be the only one who does this), so lets say $1000 / year for me, for 30 years, and multiply that by 186,000 XDS owners who are potentially upset by the handling of this recall.

[jmra]

my first and last SA product.

[The Annoyed Man]

I have had three other Springfield products and purchased a 4th as a gift for someone else, and this is the first time I've run into a QC issue for one of their products for which an answer was not immediately available. Those 4 products are:

1. My first ever Springfield product, a 1911-A1 "Loaded" model which I bought used from another forum member. It is a well-made piece of kit and has been utterly reliable. The only issue I've had with it is that I shoot with a "2 thumbs pointing forward" grip, and being left handed, my weak-side thumb sometimes presses inadvertently against the right end of the slide-stop pin, pushing the pin out to the left, jamming the gun. It doesn't happen every time, but it happens. I plan to address this by changing out the slide stop and having a bevel put around the end of the pin so that my thumb won't contact it. In all fairness, this is not a Springfield issue. This is a "1911-A1 in the hands of a left-handed shooter who uses a 'thumbs forward' grip" issue, and it has happened with my 1943 Ithaca 1911-A1 GI issue gun too.
2. My old Springfield M1A "Loaded" model. 100 rounds in, it broke off a hammer foot. I was pretty steamed about it. (Original post about it HERE.) Others (here on this forum) assured me that SA's customer service was first rate and that I was unreasonable for being steamed about it. At first, I was skeptical, but in the end they MORE than proved themselves. You can read the details on my original post, but suffice it to say that they supplied me with a replacement fire control group consisting of a GI forged hammer (a more expensive part) to replace the OEM MIM hammer, and they did so at no extra charge and had the parts back to me in about 7-8 days. That was outstanding service.
3. A second M1A "Loaded" model which I bought as a Christmas present for my son a few years ago.
4. A XD(M)-45 Compact 3.8 which has been flawlessly problem-free from day one. That gun came with a right-handed holster, and I am left-handed. After suggesting to Springfield that they are screwing left-handers on price by not making a holster available for them, they sent me a free left-handed paddle holster just like the one they include in the kit for right-handers. That is outstanding customer service.
5. My XDS-45, which has also been problem-free for me, the recall notwithstanding.

I have not sent my XDS in yet for two reasons:

1. I'm unwilling to sent it in until a solution has been tested and implemented.
2. Springfield has manufactured something on the order of a 38,700 of these pistols in 9mm, and 186,000 in .45 ACP, and a small handful of that total of 225,000 pistols have not functioned the way they are supposed to. Oh well. I've had perfectly sound AR15s experience a slam-fire. Has anyone forgotten that Smith & Wesson also recalled the M&P Shield? Does anyone remember when Taurus recalled 98,000 of their 24/7 DS pistols? You think the Springfield recall is a rare thing in the gun world? Read it and weep: http://130.94.182.159/recalls.htm

The probability that there is something wrong with MY gun is statistically very small. Against that probability, I am willing to send it in, but not before I know what they are going to do with it, or how long it will take. In the meantime, I actually have confidence in the gun. Some may call me crazy, but there it is. I'm not worried. If that was what I had available at a given moment to defend myself, I'd use it without hesitation......and with confidence.

I listened to an on-air explanation of what they are going through from the Co-CEO of Springfield (CLICK HERE) originally posted on this forum by someone else, and it helped to clarify some things for me. The CEO acknowledges the inconvenience and uncertainty that their "upgrade/recall" is creating in their customers' minds, and they are sincerely apologetic. When pressed by the interviewer as to why they did not come up with a fix before issuing the recall notice, like other manufacturers do, here is essentially what his answer was (paraphrased).....you can confirm the intent of the content by listening to the recording..... "We are a family owned business, and we like to think of our customers as being part of the Springfield family. We wanted to get ahead of this thing and get rolling on getting the guns back as soon as possible because we would feel terrible if one of our guns malfunctioned and caused injury to someone because of it. We understand that this severely inconveniences many of our customers, and we are genuinely sorry for that. But we felt that this was the safer and more responsible way to handle it."

In that last part, he is basically right. Which is more responsible: 1) try to get the guns back before someone gets hurt, or 2) leave the guns out there until they get the solution figured out, risking someone getting hurt?

They are between a rock and a hard spot. Springfield has a reputation for manufacturing quality products. Their 1911s are some of the best of the mass-produced examples of that pattern you can buy. the M1A is a quality rifle. The XD and XD(M) pistols are simply superb. Presumably, they tested and retested the XDS prototypes to the same standards that they did the larger pistols before bringing them to market. With all the liabilities associated with gun manufacturing, only an idiot would believe that Springfield would knowingly bring a defective product to market—and in practical application, they did not knowingly do that. The XDS, despite the recall, is a head and shoulders better pocket pistol than any of its competitors in that the category of "pocket cannons." And it has run into a glitch.

If you are never going to buy another Springfield product because of this recall, then you had better ALSO never buy any of the following brands, for the exact same reason:

• Berreta, Tikka, Sako ALL * NEOS
• Blaser R93
• BSA Imports Model 200
• CARACAL International Model C
• Bushmaster ACR Rifle
• Century International Arms Galil and/or Golani Semi-Auto Sporter rifles
• Colt Light Rifle * Pistols (several models)
• Connecticut Valley Arms rifles made 1995-96
• European American Armory (EAA) Witness
• Galil or Golani - see Century International Arms
• Glock several pistols * Gen4
• Heckler & Koch USC/UMP
• Howa 1500, 1550 and 1700LS
• Howa 1500SS (Stainless Steel)
• Kel-Tec PMR-30
• Knight Rifles Revolution/Revolution II
• Marvel Precision 1911 .22LR Conversions
• Mossberg 695
• NAA (North American Arms) Mini-revolvers
• Norinco NDM86 .308 Dragunov
• Remington Model 700 and others * 710 * 597 in .17HMR * VersaMax
• Saka - see Berreta
• Seecamp .32ACP pistol
• Smith & Wesson SW 1911 * 460XVR * T/C ICON®, Venture™ and Dimension® * 22A * i-Bolt#1 * i-Bolt#2 * Model 329 * all M&P Shield
• Springfield Armory 3.3 XD-S 9mm and .45ACP
• Sturm, Ruger & Co. P85 * M-77 * Bearcat Convertible * LCP * SR9
• Tanfoglio EAA Witness
• Thompson/Center (T/C) - see Smith & Wesson
• Tikka - see Berreta
• Vektor CP 1/CP 1N
• Walther PPK and PPK/S (by S&W)
• Walther PK380
• Weatherby Vanguard® Stainless Steel Rifle

There are a lot of very popular guns on that list, including some like the mighty, invincible, GLOCK ( say it ain't so!), that nobody better ever buy again if this is to be the standard by which we make these kinds of decisions. I just highlighted a few of them in Red just because they are popular models, but the others are not exactly wallflowers either. Heck, I own a couple of them too.

I understand people being upset about Springfield's way of handling this thing, but honestly, I'm not sure what they should have done differently. After my XDS has been serviced, I'm not going to let that stop me from buying anymore Springfield products.

[Teamless]

TAM,
You always post so eloquently, but (for me and I think many others) the issue is not that they had a recall.
Heck if they didn't have a recall ever, they just aren't trying hard enough to innovate.

My issues is that they came out, saying how to tell when the weapon was fixed, and saying it should be about 30 days.
My XDS has been in there hands going on 3 weeks now and as of yet, they are not sure of what the fix is, and once they do, was mine the first to arrive (doubtful), was it the 5,000th? could be, and how long will it take to fix 5,000 of them?

I think they handled this recall horribly.
They should have been honest on the front end, saying they didn't know what the fix was but send it in anyway.
They could have said, it could be 30 days to 1 year before you get your gun back.
They could have said a lot, but they didn't. And what they did say seems to have been proven bogus by their admittance that they do not know the fix.

I have also owned a couple Springfields, both XD9 Sub compacts and I thoroughly enjoyed them.
I have since sold or traded both, and now carry SW M&Ps and couldn't be happier with them.
But the XDs was very intriguing to me, so bought one in .45, and was on the lookout for one in 9mm for a month or so before the recall happened, and am glad I wasn't able to find out, or else I would be out over $1,000 worth of guns.

If they pony up the truth, I would feel so much better about it, and I bet a number of other SA owners who have ill feelings right now, would also feel better.

SA needs to salvage their reputation, and this $120,000,000 (retail) recall won't kill their company.

[VMI77]

If you are never going to buy another Springfield product because of this recall, then you had better ALSO never buy any of the following brands, for the exact same reason

I understand people being upset about Springfield's way of handling this thing, but honestly, I'm not sure what they should have done differently. After my XDS has been serviced, I'm not going to let that stop me from buying anymore Springfield products.

Heck, the same day I sent my newly purchased 45 in I went looking for an XDS in 9mm that wasn't part of the recall. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find one.

[cajunautoxer]

I've put around 10k rounds thru my XDs. Granted that's not a lot for 3 pistol but IIRC the only issues have been with Wolf ammo.

[OrangeAnimal]

I have 50 rounds thru mine but I feel more is needed to decide if the XDS is worth carrying. I still muddle along with my P238. Really wanting my next purchase to be a new rifle. Haven't decided which one though. Really considering a pistol caliber carbine.

Anyway back to the Sig, you'll be happy. Go get one you'll never look back. Nor will you have to send it in cause it doesn't work right.

[mewalke]

I think they handled this recall horribly.
They should have been honest on the front end, saying they didn't know what the fix was but send it in anyway.
They could have said, it could be 30 days to 1 year before you get your gun back.
They could have said a lot, but they didn't. And what they did say seems to have been proven bogus by their admittance that they do not know the fix.

It may not have been the most smooth experience, but from reading through the updates on their website and the other forums, it doesn't seem like they ever said they had a fix or that it would only take 30 days. After listening to the SA CEO on Gun Talk on Sunday, I think the did the right thing and have the best of intentions. He said that many companies will leave the products in the field and wait to announce a recall until they have identified the problem AND solution. SA didn't want to do that because they believed that had a serious safety issue on their hands.

I don't have any skin in the game, but I think they handled it as well as they could given the decision to announce the recall immediately after the problems were reported. I know it must be incredibly frustrating, especially for those who might have sent in their only current means of defense, but hopefully this means that some potentially deadly accidents will be prevented.

[RCP]

I could not possibly agree with TAM more, very well put Sir.

As to the OP, I own both the XDs and the 938 nightmare. My XDs .45 has also been flawless in over 700rds to date. Mine is still in my possession until I see what kind of solution is made and how it is implemented. I may not even send it in if the end result is a 16lb trigger pull or something else ridiculous. My 938 has also been completely flawless, I have read some reports of people having issues with lighter grain bullets but I have not experienced any of those. The 938 is smaller than the XDs as it can actually pocket carried but the XDs cannot (with the exception of maybe a cargo pocket). Both are extremely accurate, reliable and I'm happy with both of mine.

[RCP]