Caliber Wars

[stroo]

In light of the 380 thread, I thought the following study of about 1800 shootings over a 10 year period might be interesting.
http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/def ... ctive.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The writer concludes that all pistol calibers are inadequate so carry a rifle or shotgun!!! For you open carry folks, we can do that in Texas although depending on where you carry you might still be in jeopardy of at least taking a ride with the police.

Another conclusion to be drawn is that a lot of stops are probably psychological, in which case any caliber works.

There really is a real difference between below 380 calibers and 380 up calibers. The percentages not incapacitated almost double for the below 380 versus the above 380.

Finally shot placement is more important than caliber.

Take it for what it's worth, just one more data point.

[witchdoctor575]

well, shot placement IS more important than caliber. BUT!!! In a high stress situation, the chances of a well placed shot is low. so therefore, one needs a little bigger bullet to make up for less than desirable shot placement.

[A-R]

well, shot placement IS more important than caliber. BUT!!! In a high stress situation, the chances of a well placed shot is low. so therefore, one needs a little bigger bullet to make up for less than desirable shot placement.

A bigger bullet is not the "cure" for bad shot placement. Just like you can't "miss fast enough to win" a competition shoot you also can't miss with a big enough bullet to stop an attacker. A bigger bullet will only solve the problem of failure to stop from a good COM hit (Google the 1986 FBI Miami shootout to see why even COM hits with smaller bullets may not be enough). A bigger bullet that does not hit COM is no better (and actually worse) than a smaller bullet that does hit COM.

The only cure for bad shot placement is PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE. And the only way to practice shot placement under stress is to practice under some form of stress (competition, tactical training - something more than just standing flat-footed at a range and shooting B-27 targets at 7 yards.

If you can't place all your shots on a paper plate at 10-15 yards while standing flat footed at the range using a two-handed grip, then you need more PRACTICE with general pistol shooting regardless of caliber. Then once you can do that try doing the same while moving and reaching around "cover" in an IDPA type competition. Then get some real tactical training. Then if you still think you need a bigger bullet, go buy what you want.

Also a "near miss" shot with any caliber may hit someone or something else important after it misses its intended target. Then YOU are the bad guy.

There is NO SUBSTITUTE for accuracy. And the only way to achieve accuracy is consistent, worthwhile practice (not just plinkin').

[thatguy]

I agree with shot placement being a priority. In any given situation there will be to many variables to consider, especially in real time. My to do list is:

1. Have a gun. The gun you have on you when you need it will be the "perfect" gun.

2. Pay attention to your surroundings. The best way to win a fight is not to get into one.

3. Training and practice. Practice is one thing I CAN control. Practice builds confidence, which leads to good judgment.

4. Resolution. When the fight is on, there are few rules but to win.

Stay safe and God Bless.

[doc.lonestar]

The issue that I have found is the way that people shoot - there is target shooting and then there is defensive shooting.

Quicker paced shot follow ups, center of mass targeting - vs standing in perfect position, taking a shot and waiting 4-5 seconds to acquire a perfect sight for a head shot picture then waiting for your "breath to pause" and then squeeze. I cannot imagine that I am going to have much time if I have to draw my weapon and train as such.

Shot placement is vital - a .45 will not create a bigger hole if it does not connect with the intended target. That being said - neither will a .22 or a .223 or shotgun etc. If you cannot handle or shoot anything larger than a .22 then please carry a .22, but if you can handle something larger then by all means do so.

We cannot argue with physics - if you hit the same target in the same spot with a larger bullet you are going to get a bigger hole.

[Sputz]

I would not step in front of any bullet no matter what size it was, and I think that is most normal peoples mentality so carry what you are willing to carry/shoot and don't worry about what the internet says. There are no guarantees that you will win a gunfight anyways the best you can do is be somewhat prepared for what may come out there.

Sputz

[The Annoyed Man]

I think that the psychology of getting hit is a HUGE factor. There are plenty of stories of people who were hit hard, perhaps even hit fatally if absent medical intervention, who continued to fight and to fight well until they are either relieved or expire. That is the danger when the shoot involves someone who is amped up on some kind of drug and is existing in a mind-altered state. They might not even know they've been shot; or they might be even further enraged by being shot. Police and military experience abounds with stories of people who absorb multiple bullet hits—even from rifles—and they keep coming. THAT is why shot placement is so important. If your shot doesn't puncture an aorta or the brain or spinal cord, or some other organ which is likely to cause immediate incapacitation, you may require multiple hits before you incapacitate your foe. Also, hits to some areas may produce gradual incapacitation. For instance, hits to the lung fields might not immediately disable someone, but a sucking chest wound will ultimately be fatal, even if the blood loss isn't too severe and no other organ has been hit.

However, the psychological factor is not to be ignored. If the GSW recipient is even moderately sentient, they may likely incapacitate themselves over the idea of having been shot. It's the insentient ones you really have to worry about.

[bigmoney]

The writer concludes that all pistol calibers are inadequate

Last night I was looking, unsuccessfully, for ballistics numbers in depth of all calibers and self defense ammo. (And when I say that, I mean actual third party scientific type test data that's not just from Joe Shmoe in his backyard, but more similar to what Andyc displayed in the .380 discussion if anyone has any good links.) But I came across the story of the Trooper Coates shooting in South Carolina which I had never heard about before. In which the trooper struggled with the BG and put a few rounds of .357 into the guy and didn't phase him enough to keep from returning fire on the trooper with a .22 that, as the article stated, passed through his left arm and through the arm hole of his vest and hit a vital spot. It was an eye opening story to me in combination with Andyc's explanation of the myth of energy. In fact it was an article on mousegun.com, IIRC, that was discussing the myth of energy transfer also, which is where the story came to light. What I learned was 1. shot placement for sure, which I already knew, but just reinerated the point. 2. Neither my 9mm or .380 could be effective enough and that the situation may not even be in my, nor my opponents hands, but not to rely solely on the weapon for survival.

In all this is just my opinion as I saw it in my mind, but I'm still going to carry both, at least until I acquire the .45 I'm saving so hard for, to put the 9 on reserve duty. But to clarify the .380 is my only option in my line of work because it hides so easy in the pocket, not to drudge up that old argument, but working diesel repair at the moment as a contracted employee, I have not been given any kind of effective notice about not having firearms on me or the properties I work, and crawling around on the ground and maneuvering into strange positions make it impossible to keep the shirt down, pant legs down, and even sometimes keep things in my pocket, but the overnight shift in the hood of Houston ain't changing my mind. So it's just my best option to keep something from happening to receive that effective notice.
Besides, if a .380 doesn't stop someone, it'll still make a better striking tool than bare fists IMO.

[lonewolf]

My 2 cents, for whatever that may be worth...

Carrying something you can shoot reliably and reasonably accurately is paramount. If you don't know how the instrument is played, your music will never sound right, or reach the audience.

My instrument of choice plays a 9mm tune, and that can be received well and reasonably accurately by the appropriate audience. I can repeat the performance 41 times, if required, based on my normal carry configuration. I am not experienced with 1911 instrument to make that kind of statement, although perhaps I may be in the future.

If I were that familiar with another platform, whether bigger or smaller, I would be content to carry that as well.

Bottom line, learn to play the instrument well. The piccolo is just as important as the tuba when properly utilized.....

In My Humble Opinion, of course

[gwashorn]

I think that the psychology of getting hit is a HUGE factor. There are plenty of stories of people who were hit hard, perhaps even hit fatally if absent medical intervention, who continued to fight and to fight well until they are either relieved or expire. That is the danger when the shoot involves someone who is amped up on some kind of drug and is existing in a mind-altered state. They might not even know they've been shot; or they might be even further enraged by being shot. Police and military experience abounds with stories of people who absorb multiple bullet hits—even from rifles—and they keep coming. THAT is why shot placement is so important. If your shot doesn't puncture an aorta or the brain or spinal cord, or some other organ which is likely to cause immediate incapacitation, you may require multiple hits before you incapacitate your foe. Also, hits to some areas may produce gradual incapacitation. For instance, hits to the lung fields might not immediately disable someone, but a sucking chest wound will ultimately be fatal, even if the blood loss isn't too severe and no other organ has been hit.

However, the psychological factor is not to be ignored. If the GSW recipient is even moderately sentient, they may likely incapacitate themselves over the idea of having been shot. It's the insentient ones you really have to worry about.

TAM is right here and the intent is to STOP the threat. Assuming most encounters will be in a close distance, another method is "Pocket Shots" that is shoot the hips in the jean pockets. A shattered hip will not support a person to advance. A drugged person who can ignore being shot will still drop if the hip is gone. Problem is this will probably be a fatal wound as you will probably hit the femoral artery and no way to stop that bleeding will help here. But you have to protect yourself first. Just a note on placement shots and their purpose.

[TX Rancher]

It's certainly a waste of time to argue with shot placement being higher on the priority list than caliber. After all, which would you rather have happen in a gun fight:

A) Your 44 mag bullets (6 of them) pass within 1/10 inch of the BG's head.
B) Your 38spl round (only one) passes through the BG neck and takes out both the airway and the spine

I know which one I would opt for! But do you want to bet your life on being that accurate with your "shot placement".

Your problem is you need an incapacitating shot that does it's job immediately, waiting 10 sec or more for the BG to bleed out is not a good idea. It should be kept in mind that without the psychological incapacitation, which is at best unreliable, physical incapacitation pretty much requires taking out the Central Nervous System (CNS). Heart shots are nice, but a determined foe can still operate long enough to empty their magazine into you before the brain runs dry...or stick you with that knife...or finish the swing with that bat...you get the idea.

As the OP alluded to, pistols are essentially unreliable in stopping humans. We can all find stories about the 230 lbs perp taken down by a 22. On the other side, we can find where hits by 40's, 45's, and 9's have apparently unfazed the 130lbs crack head, so none of them is a "death ray", or to be politically correct, a "Incapacitation Ray"

But shot placement where you hit the CNS, under stress, is difficult for most people. Of course there are the folks that never miss a head shot, but evaluate your skills in a realistic light before you depend on it. Can you do it in a low light situation? What about one handed? What about after the perp has knocked you to the ground? What if he's running towards you with a knife or gun in his hand? Moving targets certainly complicate hitting the CNS.

Can you hit the CNS while you are moving? If he has a gun he could very well be shooting at you, and if you're standing still you make a better target.

Get a friend who has an airsoft pistol and try it for yourself. You may be surprised how many times your "style" allows you to get shot. Remember, your goal is probably to survive the encounter. Getting shot can put a serious damper on that plan

Go for the hardest hitting round you can effectively control (notice I didn't say largest caliber), assume you may need multiple shots to stop your attacker (and mag capacity comes into play here since you may not have time to reload), and get in as much realistic practice as possible.

[v-rog]

shot).

[nuparadigm]

This is a good discussion. Probably the most instructive comments would be from those who have actually seen the elephant (those who have either been shot or those who have connected a projectile with a living person). Any takers?

[The Annoyed Man]

My CHL instructor emphasized that we should use the amount of ammo it takes to STOP the aggressor given the 10-second rule (the amount of air a person has even when shot).

I don't think of it in terms of how much ammo. I think of it in terms of pulling the trigger until the threat stops. That might mean a single shot. It might mean a magazine swap. Knowing my own skill level, I think that a COM hit is realistic. I'm not certain I could count on much better than that. For me, COM means the chest, not the entire torso. I think that most GSW recipients, unless they were just completely cranking on something, would be stopped by 3 or 4 to the chest. Most would. Certainly not all. The reason that caliber is important, and also good bullet design, is not because a .45 is a better death ray than a 9mm, but because it will likely expand to a larger diameter than the 9mm, making a bigger hole. A bigger hole means a better chance of taking out something vital that a smaller hole might miss. That's all it means. Although I am no fan of the .380 ACP cartridge, one of those through a brain will end the fight faster than a .45 through the chest. But, I'm not going to count on making a shot to the head under that kind of pressure. That's called being a realist.

That said, even though I prefer the .45 ACP cartridge above all others, my EDC lately has been a Kahr PM9. So, to compensate, I've tried to load it with bullets that have a reputation for significant expansion with decent penetration for a 9mm. For now, that turns out to be the Corbon DPX.

[HankB]

I've done enough hunting to be convinced that there is no such thing as sure "knock down" power.

I once shot a zebra with a .30/06 - he went down right in his tracks . . . and I mean STRAIGHT down, right on his belly, like someone had dropped a Buick on him. And zebra's have a reputation for being difficult to put down.

I also shot a bushbuck (think of a small Texas whitetail) with a .375 H&H, breaking the shoulder and taking out the heart . . . and he still ran about 50 yards on three legs. Tough little so-and-so.

Most people probably aren't as tough as wild animals, but the odds are you're not using a rifle, either. So in a defensive situation - keep shooting until the threat is ended. Shoot as fast as you can get hits - don't fire a shot and wait for a reaction. And use the biggest practical cartridge you can.