SLAM FIRE?

[Excaliber]

Slam fire... in a modern handgun, like a SIG, firing pin block, yata yata tata... possible?

Of course it's possible.

Statistically, however, unintended discharges are more than likely the result of operator negligence, rather than design defects / damaged parts.

This is why regular maintenance and inspection of a firearm is important. With regular maintenance, inspection, and function checks, it is highly likely that an individual can identify potential issues BEFORE they can lead to a possible unintended discharge.

Was there fouling / debris causing the firing pin to stick and protrude through the breech face?

Was there a problem with hammer follow that could have been identified through a normal function check?

Or, was the round simply discharged due to negligent handling techniques of the owner?

Due to the fact that the individual failed to orient the firearm in a safe direction when he sent the slide forward, I am more likely to believe that the discharge occurred due to either negligent handling practices, or maintenance, on his part, rather than on faulty equipment.

I agree.

Anyone negligent enough to point a firearm (especially one he has just confirmed is loaded) at part of his own body is certainly highly suspect for other negligent or improper practices like oiling the firing pin channel (As G.A. Heath has suggested), failing to periodically clean firing pin debris from the firing pin channel, and other similar errors.

The gun should be examined promptly by a competent Sig armorer to determine what happened before it is loaded again.

This is another good example of some folks' practice of disregarding wisdom accumulated from others' mistakes and insisting on committing the same ones themselves before they get it. The gentleman involved in this case now has personal experience with the reason behind Rule #2 and will hopefully be more likely to follow it in the future.

[AdioSS]

IMO, I don't think light foam (a couch) is going to stop a bullet very well.

True, but it should help muffle the BANG!

[E.Marquez]

Both YOU and your Drill Sergeant were wrong, then and now...

FUNCTIONING • 12. METHOD OF OPERATION.-a. A loaded magazine is placed in the receiver and the slide drawn fully back and released, thus bringing the first cartridge into the chamber. (If the slide is open push down the slide stop to let the slide go for- ward.)

So yes, the function part is called a stop, that same part IAW the users manual, the Field Manual for the M1911 clearly denotes depressing the Slide Stop to let the slide go forward.... By the way, I pated that quote from the Marine Corps Field Manual..

It's one thing to be a sharp shooter and takes things off topic, it's another when said sharp shooter is incorrect and only adds white noise to the discussion.
Now, since there was no M1911 involved in this thread, perhaps we can get back on topic.

I must admit in advance that I am not familiar with the Sig. As an old, and I mean "old," M1911 guy I was disturbed by the initial report stating "...as I let go of the slide release it slam-fired."

Does this weapon have a "slide release" or a "slide stop?" Use of poor terminology can lead to a bad practice. For example, in the case of the M1911 calling a slide stop a slide release can lead to using it as a slide release rather than jacking the slide with the weapon pointed in a safe direction to put one in the breech. 59 years ago my Gunny made one who did this suffer -- badly.

Please forgive me if my ignorance about the particular handgun has led me astray.

More important though, regardless of the identity of the weapon, long or short, is never point it at any part of your body, or any part of the body of another person, loaded or unloaded, unless it is intentional and you are prepared to fire. Perhaps this is what other commentators have called "#1" or #2," or such, labels with which, once again, I am unfamiliar.

Respectfully,

Elmo

[E.Marquez]

I have not yet asked about model,,, I may call today and find out.

Yes, the weapon was pointed down along side his leg, "toward the ground in a safe direction" Obviously, angled toward his leg.. Yes a mistake, one he paid for. A Mistake that should never have happened,, of that there is no debate.

I have seen many a shooter in the calm environment of range time, practice perfect weapons handling, to include during "competitions" only to flag another or them selfs when in a real fight. We learn from it and move on.... Those who believe they are trained beyond that reality, are mistaken, and or Jeff Cooper Delta Force / Seal team experienced. An honest personal will acknowledge that while practice in training is vital, and greatly increases ones ability to do the same under stress, it is not in any way absolute.

Weekend shooters... sorry, your not as trained as you think you are. I know you will disagree, I know you feel you know better,, I know I've witnessed things that have formed my opinion in 24 years of doing this for a leaving. None of that is a flame to anyone, just my experience.
I agree the gun needs to be inspected.. I'm leaning to a Sig trained armorer vice SIG.. as the private shop may be willing to see and describe the malfunction part(s) ((If they exist, I'm still not sure this was not a rule 3 deal..... seen it countless times)) while the company owned armorer I'd think would be more likely to replace several offending parts yet not be willing to state these replaced parts could definitively be the cause of an unreproducible slam fire.

Lastly.... I'm going to ask if I can borrow the weapon.. I'll do some snap cap dry fire testing, want to look at the maintenance, and then do some live fire testing.... The guy in question is not law suite happy, I think he knows, even if the weapon did malfunction.....if all else had gone as it should have, the result would have been a round striking the ground (which could have still caused damage)

Thanks to all for the replys.....

[Excaliber]

I have not yet asked about model,,, I may call today and find out.

Yes, the weapon was pointed down along side his leg, "toward the ground in a safe direction" Obviously, angled toward his leg.. Yes a mistake, one he paid for. A Mistake that should never have happened,, of that there is no debate.

I have seen many a shooter in the calm environment of range time, practice perfect weapons handling, to include during "competitions" only to flag another or them selfs when in a real fight. We learn from it and move on.... Those who believe they are trained beyond that reality, are mistaken, and or Jeff Cooper Delta Force / Seal team experienced. An honest personal will acknowledge that while practice in training is vital, and greatly increases ones ability to do the same under stress, it is not in any way absolute.

Weekend shooters... sorry, your not as trained as you think you are. I know you will disagree, I know you feel you know better,, I know I've witnessed things that have formed my opinion in 24 years of doing this for a leaving. None of that is a flame to anyone, just my experience.
I agree the gun needs to be inspected.. I'm leaning to a Sig trained armorer vice SIG.. as the private shop may be willing to see and describe the malfunction part(s) ((If they exist, I'm still not sure this was not a rule 3 deal..... seen it countless times)) while the company owned armorer I'd think would be more likely to replace several offending parts yet not be willing to state these replaced parts could definitively be the cause of an unreproducible slam fire.

Lastly.... I'm going to ask if I can borrow the weapon.. I'll do some snap cap dry fire testing, want to look at the maintenance, and then do some live fire testing.... The guy in question is not law suite happy, I think he knows, even if the weapon did malfunction.....if all else had gone as it should have, the result would have been a round striking the ground (which could have still caused damage)

Thanks to all for the replys.....

It's also worth noting that if your friend had used the more reliable hand over the top of the slide grip to release the slide instead of using the slide stop lever, it would have been nearly impossible to execute this maneuver in a way that put the gun in a position to wound himself in the manner he did.

[E.Marquez]

The fact he has (had) a bullet in his leg attests to the fact there are better ways to do what was done.. No argument there, wither ND or malfunction... the weapon was still pointed in a direction it should not have been.

Weak hand and single hand alternate shooting requires using the slide release at times, though I also train using a hard edge of an available surface, and other body parts I'll not mention here.
My concern and issue remains, not the result (separate issue) but the firing event itself.

I have not yet asked about model,,, I may call today and find out.

Yes, the weapon was pointed down along side his leg, "toward the ground in a safe direction" Obviously, angled toward his leg.. Yes a mistake, one he paid for. A Mistake that should never have happened,, of that there is no debate.

I have seen many a shooter in the calm environment of range time, practice perfect weapons handling, to include during "competitions" only to flag another or them selfs when in a real fight. We learn from it and move on.... Those who believe they are trained beyond that reality, are mistaken, and or Jeff Cooper Delta Force / Seal team experienced. An honest personal will acknowledge that while practice in training is vital, and greatly increases ones ability to do the same under stress, it is not in any way absolute.

Weekend shooters... sorry, your not as trained as you think you are. I know you will disagree, I know you feel you know better,, I know I've witnessed things that have formed my opinion in 24 years of doing this for a leaving. None of that is a flame to anyone, just my experience.
I agree the gun needs to be inspected.. I'm leaning to a Sig trained armorer vice SIG.. as the private shop may be willing to see and describe the malfunction part(s) ((If they exist, I'm still not sure this was not a rule 3 deal..... seen it countless times)) while the company owned armorer I'd think would be more likely to replace several offending parts yet not be willing to state these replaced parts could definitively be the cause of an unreproducible slam fire.

Lastly.... I'm going to ask if I can borrow the weapon.. I'll do some snap cap dry fire testing, want to look at the maintenance, and then do some live fire testing.... The guy in question is not law suite happy, I think he knows, even if the weapon did malfunction.....if all else had gone as it should have, the result would have been a round striking the ground (which could have still caused damage)

Thanks to all for the replys.....

It's also worth noting that if your friend had used the more reliable hand over the top of the slide grip to release the slide instead of using the slide stop lever, it would have been nearly impossible to execute this maneuver in a way that put the gun in a position to wound himself in the manner he did.

[RHenriksen]

I experienced a slamfire once, at Bailey's range in Houston, where they don't allow you to use the magazine on your rifle! (???). I had to drop a .308 round into the chamber, then release the bolt. Wound up shooting through one of the rods of my friend's chronograph that holds the white plastic straps above the sensors. Shocked me, but thankfully I was obeying rule #1.

That was a RRA LAR-8. I don't know that I'd hold anything against the weapon; it wasn't designed to be used that way. I just won't try shooting it again at places where I can't use the magazine...

[shootthesheet]

Have any modifications been done to the pistol?

[zero4o3]

I have not yet asked about model,,, I may call today and find out.

Yes, the weapon was pointed down along side his leg, "toward the ground in a safe direction" Obviously, angled toward his leg.. Yes a mistake, one he paid for. A Mistake that should never have happened,, of that there is no debate.

I have seen many a shooter in the calm environment of range time, practice perfect weapons handling, to include during "competitions" only to flag another or them selfs when in a real fight. We learn from it and move on.... Those who believe they are trained beyond that reality, are mistaken, and or Jeff Cooper Delta Force / Seal team experienced. An honest personal will acknowledge that while practice in training is vital, and greatly increases ones ability to do the same under stress, it is not in any way absolute.

Weekend shooters... sorry, your not as trained as you think you are. I know you will disagree, I know you feel you know better,, I know I've witnessed things that have formed my opinion in 24 years of doing this for a leaving. None of that is a flame to anyone, just my experience.
I agree the gun needs to be inspected.. I'm leaning to a Sig trained armorer vice SIG.. as the private shop may be willing to see and describe the malfunction part(s) ((If they exist, I'm still not sure this was not a rule 3 deal..... seen it countless times)) while the company owned armorer I'd think would be more likely to replace several offending parts yet not be willing to state these replaced parts could definitively be the cause of an unreproducible slam fire.

Lastly.... I'm going to ask if I can borrow the weapon.. I'll do some snap cap dry fire testing, want to look at the maintenance, and then do some live fire testing.... The guy in question is not law suite happy, I think he knows, even if the weapon did malfunction.....if all else had gone as it should have, the result would have been a round striking the ground (which could have still caused damage)

Thanks to all for the replys.....

I will be interested in hearing which gun it was so please keep us updated with more information, glad to hear your friend is doing ok.

[b322da]

Both YOU and your Drill Sergeant were wrong, then and now...

FUNCTIONING • 12. METHOD OF OPERATION.-a. A loaded magazine is placed in the receiver and the slide drawn fully back and released, thus bringing the first cartridge into the chamber. (If the slide is open push down the slide stop to let the slide go for- ward.)

So yes, the function part is called a stop, that same part IAW the users manual, the Field Manual for the M1911 clearly denotes depressing the Slide Stop to let the slide go forward.... By the way, I pated that quote from the Marine Corps Field Manual..

It's one thing to be a sharp shooter and takes things off topic, it's another when said sharp shooter is incorrect and only adds white noise to the discussion.
Now, since there was no M1911 involved in this thread, perhaps we can get back on topic.

Are you always this rude to perfect strangers, bronco, or am I a special case for some reason?

My DI is not wrong. He is dead. He gave his entire life to his country, thru WWII, Korea and on into training the new generation for who knew what. I can tolerate insults to myself. I am waterproof. But to see this man insulted turns my stomach.

Your quote from the USMC manual duplicates FM 23-35 of 1940, so it goes way back. I still have my copy issued to me in 1953.

Could I suggest that arguably we are both right, and both wrong here. Me for not pointing out the difference in procedure laid out in the manual depending upon whether the slide is back or forward, and you for exactly the same reason, as you clearly use very unfriendly language which ignores that sometimes it is indeed correct to load the first round by jacking the slide.

If I might elaborate a bit further, my DI was a veteran of more than five years of combat, and he used the M1911 for what it was intended. He went a bit further than we see in FM 23-35. It was his position that racking the slide is "more gentle" on the pistol, and the slam (as in Slamfire) you get by releasing with the slide stop was discouraged when other than in combat, where the objective was to get a round in the breech in as short a period of time as possible, but, to do it unnecessarily, always, causes unnecessary stress on parts of the weapon. You may disagree if you wish. No problem. I will observe, for what it is worth, perhaps nothing, that those are the same insturctionsI received from the armorer of the AMU -- the guy who had to rebuild these weapons.

Maybe we have a generation gap here, and my long use of the real M1911 colors my position. I will admit that.

In closing, if this is your forum or you are a moderator I will accept your incontinent and grossly rude discipline. But until then I will not. In my opinion safety is never off-topic.

Elmo

[Ameer]

Anyone negligent enough to point a firearm (especially one he has just confirmed is loaded) at part of his own body is certainly highly suspect for other negligent or improper practices like oiling the firing pin channel (As G.A. Heath has suggested), failing to periodically clean firing pin debris from the firing pin channel, and other similar errors.

Don't forget pressing the trigger while dropping the slide. If someone violates one safety rule, they might violate others.

[esxmarkc]

Well in an attempt to get this train back on the rails I will offer this;

As an engineer and somewhat of a statistician I can say that there are very few things in this world that are truly impossible. Many things are EXTREMELY improbable. Nonetheless, even at odds over 15 million to one someone still manages to win the Texas lottery about every couple weeks on average.

So is it possible that your friend was the big looser in the slam-fire lottery? Given the multitudes of handguns around the state of Texas that are charged every week it is certainly possible even with incredibly steep odds.

But condider this: Most all Sigs are hammer fired as opposed to striker fired (not all, but most models I am familiar with) and, most Sig models have a firing pin block safety system. Boiling this down:

A. You must have the trigger pulled in order for the firing pin to have access to the primer even if the hammer somehow releases foward on it's own the firing pin won't see the back of the primer. Many Sigs have hammer decocking levers as testament to this.

B. If the firing pin were frozen foward of the bock and protruding, the inertia of the slide would have to be sufficient even after stripping a cartridge to provide the force required to fire. AND if this were the case then the weapon would likely have continued to slam fire until it was empty and you could still find the pin in it's forward position.

So my answer is that depending on the model of the Sig I would have to say it is VERY improbable although not impossible, it is VERY, VERY improbable.

Tell your buddy to go buy a lottery ticket before wednesday and maybe his week will brighten up. Tell him to get well soon and that sometimes the most valuable lessons come with the nastiest ego bruises and physicial scars. We'd all like to think that "this could never happen to me" but alas we are all human and all capable of making errors. Maybe he made only one nasty error when his weapon was pointed at him as he dropped the slide, maybe he made two with his finger on the trigger. We will never really know.

We all make mistakes. We do our best not to but it does happen - even to the best of us.

[Dave2]

So is it possible that your friend was the big looser in the slam-fire lottery? Given the multitudes of handguns around the state of Texas that are charged every week it is certainly possible even with incredibly steep odds.

But condider this: Most all Sigs are hammer fired as opposed to striker fired (not all, but most models I am familiar with) and, most Sig models have a firing pin block safety system. Boiling this down:

A. You must have the trigger pulled in order for the firing pin to have access to the primer even if the hammer somehow releases foward on it's own the firing pin won't see the back of the primer. Many Sigs have hammer decocking levers as testament to this.

B. If the firing pin were frozen foward of the bock and protruding, the inertia of the slide would have to be sufficient even after stripping a cartridge to provide the force required to fire. AND if this were the case then the weapon would likely have continued to slam fire until it was empty and you could still find the pin in it's forward position.

So my answer is that depending on the model of the Sig I would have to say it is VERY improbable although not impossible, it is VERY, VERY improbable.

There's also scenario C:
The firing pin block pin got gunky, the spring that's supposed to reset it wasn't strong enough at first so the gun legitimately slam-fired, but the shock of the gun going off jarred it lose preventing continued slam-firing. (Don't laugh too hard -- the manual specifically tells you to make sure this part is working correctly as part of the cleaning procedure.)

[LongHairedRedneck]

Stll would like to know what the primer on the spent casing looked like. Normal indentation? Crushed? Light strike? no marking at all?