Good Argument Against a 6-Shooter

[israel67]

I'm amazed no one has yet pointed out that if this scenario is an argument against the carrying of a revolver, then it's also an argument against the revered 1911.

I seem to recall reading that something like, um what were the figures again? That in gunfights, people hit their target only half the time or something? Well if that's the case, it only takes one missed round .. and your 1911 has become a 'revolver'.

[DoubleJ]

I keep 9rounds in my 1911...

[TxD]

I keep 9rounds in my 1911...

And everyone knows that 9 230 gr 45ACP flying ashtrays out of John Browning's finest are more than equal to 18 9mm mosquito mashers out of a plastic watergun or a crunchenticker.

This of course is only applicable when fired from the Weaver stance.

[israel67]

I keep 9rounds in my 1911...

And everyone knows that 9 230 gr 45ACP flying ashtrays out of John Browning's finest are more than equal to 18 9mm mosquito mashers out of a plastic watergun or a crunchenticker.

This of course is only applicable when fired from the Weaver stance.

And what about this ..?

[HighVelocity]

I keep 9rounds in my 1911...

And everyone knows that 9 230 gr 45ACP flying ashtrays out of John Browning's finest are more than equal to 18 9mm mosquito mashers out of a plastic watergun or a crunchenticker.

This of course is only applicable when fired from the Weaver stance.

And what about this ..?

Ever fire a 357 Sig without ear protection? I don't recommend it.

[G.C.Montgomery]

Ever fire a 357 Sig without ear protection? I don't recommend it.

Neither do I but, it is one heck of an attention getter! I swear DPS uses that round just for the noise.

[Skiprr]

And everyone knows that 9 230 gr 45ACP flying ashtrays out of John Browning's finest are more than equal to 18 9mm mosquito mashers out of a plastic watergun or a crunchenticker.

This of course is only applicable when fired from the Weaver stance.

And that would be a strict Weaver only...

[casingpoint]

The 357 MAG and 357 SIG are overloaded rounds beyond the capability and preference of many people in the market for self defense firearms. One logical thing to reduce the overall impact is to overload a smaller round. Hence, the 327 MAG. Whether it catches on in the market or not, from a ballistics engineering standpoint the 327 MAG is a vast improvement over the 357's. We haven't seen an FBI test on the 327 MAG yet, but general expectations for the 115 grain round is that penetration through denim and gel will be 16-18 inches, accompanied by adequate expansion. This is going to make for one humdinger of a PD revolver in an eight shot K frame. Barring that, perhaps Ruger will chamber it in the three inch GP100. Good enough.

[Mithras61]

You just need to carry one of THESE wheelguns...

[DoubleJ]

I keep 9rounds in my 1911...

And everyone knows that 9 230 gr 45ACP flying ashtrays out of John Browning's finest are more than equal to 18 9mm mosquito mashers out of a plastic watergun or a crunchenticker.

This of course is only applicable when fired from the Weaver stance.

good'en.
I carry a 1911, a Beretta 92, .357mag revo, a Glock'n Wesson... not all at the same time though.......
just need that Glock Foh-tay to round it out, right?

That Ruger .327Mag looks cool. I'd like to shoot one of those, course if Federal is the only one making the ammo, could be a rather expensive round to practice with!

[Excaliber]

I've enjoyed reading the "my gun choice is bigger / better / faster / meaner than your gun" posts, many of which were clearly written for their amusement value and the certainty that they would provoke more memorable responses. It seems to me that the real question here is how does one choose a defensive carry system wisely?

Here's my take on the subject:

A good choice of a weapon carry system should be a balance of priorities tailored to an individual's likely defensive encounter circumstances, physical abilities, and body build. Here is my personal set of priorities, along with a couple of comments that will likely generate more of the aforementioned memorable responses:

1. Intensive training with the selected weapon to the point of unconscious competence (ability to reliably perform on demand under stress - "PODUS"). This is not negotiable regardless of hardware. You have to be able to reliably place all rounds where they will do the most good in poor light, with and without cover, while moving, in a multiple assailant 360 degree environment. If you're not carrying this, whatever else you've got is unlikely to help much in a seriously bad situation.

2. Adequate caliber for defensive purposes. The point of carrying a defensive weapon is to be able to stop a threat with reasonable reliability. Although it's fun to experiment with various exotic loadings, most folks who have seen a significant number of shootings up close and personal agree on two things, given good bullet placement: Bigger is generally better (.45ACP or .40S&W). (This is a bit controversial in some quarters ) and a little smaller and lot faster (e.g. 9mm+P+) may work just as well if bullet expansion occurs. This doesn't happen reliably enough to make a lot of folks comfortable, but when it does, the results are quite satisfactory. The.357 magnums from 4" guns have an excellent stopping history, and .38 / .357 / 9mm in +P hollowpoint loadings are pretty good too.

The bottom line is: You would not be poorly armed with any of them.

Although some consider the .380 viable, I see no point to carrying that round when weapons of the same size are readily available in 9mm. Smaller calibers should be reserved for folks who have an overriding need for an extremely tiny carry package, because the ability to stop threats with one or two rounds (the point of this whole exercise) with reasonable reliability in a short enough time to do you any good is poor. Their best use is in deep concealment backup (secondary) guns.

3. Recoil tolerance. This is a combination of cartridge, weapon envelope, and physical stature and abilities. Once you've learned grip, stance, sight alignment, and trigger control to the point where you can keep all shots in a 4" circle at about 7 yards with a light recoiling gun (a .22 is ideal), try various combinations of guns and cartridges to find what works for you. I suggest going to a range that rents a wide variety of guns and starting with big gun / small defensive cartridge (e.g, full size Springfield XD in 9mm, and 4" all steel .38 Spcl) with self defense ammunition. Work up in cartridge (.40 S&W, .45ACP) to your point of tolerance, and then down in size (compact semiautos and 2" revolvers) until you find the smallest package for the largest caliber you can shoot competently. You can rent a lot of guns before you equal the cost of a single purchase decision that you regret.

This is a good place to start your concealed carry system, and it doesn't matter much if your selection process ended up with a revolver or a semiauto. The ability to deliver consistent vital zone hits with the first few shots is much more important than the number of shots available before a reload. Without that ability, more rounds won't help.

4. Complexity. If you're a "learned to shoot on the weekend, loaded the gun, and won't shoot it again for 6 months" person, the revolver will have significant advantages for you because its manual of arms is much simpler than that of the autoloader. If you don't shoot a lot (at least monthly) I suggest you consider that simpler may be better for you. You'll build confidence more easily, there will be fewer things to go wrong, and fewer ways to get into trouble. If you're willing to spend a lot more time learning about weapon function and working on the range, the semiauto will also be a viable choice.

5. Carry Method. If you follow the selection process in step 3, this step consists of selecting a holster system for your chosen weapon. There are lots of very fine carry systems available and the selection extends far beyond what you'll find in even a very well stocked gun shop. Talk to instructors and very experienced CHL holders for recommendations. Posting a request for suggested solutions to a given challenge on this forum will quickly get you lots of excellent responses. Women often find that female instructors have insights that are especially valuable in addressing their individual concerns.

This post certainly won't end the revolver vs. semiauto debate, and it's not intended to be a definitive treatise on how to pick a defensive weapon, but I hope it will refocus some attention on what's really important.

[lunchbox]

carry both

problem solved

[Chris]

Dude, you need to get out of the suburbs! I live in a neighborhood called Pleasantville but it sounds like you’ve spent too much time watching the movie. PLEASE come to my neighborhood…You have to realize that some people see the world very differently and may not value their own life quite as much as you value your own. Your post indicates you do not live in an area typically inhabited or victimized by gangbangers. So, let me offer a rebuttal as someone living in an area that has a well known presence of Crips and plenty of crime that goes well beyond burglary.

I think many areas like mine and those in which gangbangers thrive are victimized on both sides. Witnesses who talk to police often take their lives in their own hands because doing so can get them targeted by gangbangers who might otherwise ignore them. That isn’t made up, I’ve seen it happen. What makes it worse is that some officers, and sometimes entire departments, will fail to follow up on reports or witness statements because that particular patrol beat simply isn’t a priority. Worst case, the area may have been written off as a lost cause by a department’s leadership…Nothing like hearing something like that from a narcotics officer when asking why a local drug dealer living two houses down is still walking the streets. Again, please come to my neighborhood and let’s see if your theories hold water.

Now that I’m off my soap box, I’ll make a partial concession…One of the things that works in favor of the good guys is that most criminals are amateur gunmen and aren't exactly the world’s greatest tacticians. Can we count on this? Of course not but, it is still pretty rare for bad guys to think about how many bullets you’ve got and how long your ammunition reserves will last. On that thought, it is also atypical for the average moron robbing your grocery store to carry a reload for his pistol.

Now back to the gangbangers…While most may be amateurs, these guys do seem to have an understanding of contamination fire. If they are planning a hit, some gangs will pour boxes and boxes and boxes of bullets into house, apartment or just someone’s front yard. Collateral damage means nothing to them. If you are not involved but somehow get caught in a cross fire between two parties, these people will say it’s your fault for being there. There is no logic. They believe they have nothing to lose and the only thing they understand is strength and violence. Jail is little more than a vacation. Death simply an end to a life they don’t value anyway. Are there ways to strike fear in people like this? Yes but, WE as good guys would have to become monsters on a scale no decent person wants to imagine and then we would be no different than the bad guys.

OK, I think I’m done with deep thoughts…Please return to the original discussion of arguments for and against revolvers.

I chased two guys solo through the Butler projects at 2AM, and suffice it to say, every porch had a group of no less than 3 people standing on it. While Butler isn't known for being "police friendly", they aren't going to miss the opportunity to see someone get thumped by the cops. They made sure I knew where those guys went.

99.9% are going to run. I have spent time working in the Tarrant County Jail, and a whole lot more time working the streets in the metroplex. When you are on the other end of the crap hotline, it behooves you to carry a variety of arms, and plenty of ammo to go around. Most of the plainclothes officers never wear more than a magazine or two, and rarely do they have a backup. But there is not much out there that a little old revolver can't handle for Joe Citizen. I'm surprised it's even a debate. I've never felt undergunned on my own with my 5 shot revolver and a little speed strip, and I've had to use it before. That ought to be plenty to get me out of any messes around here.

You guys that argue about court, and testifying about what you carry, and all that stuff. What are you going to tell a jury when you shoot someone, and you've got to explain why you carry 3 guns, and two boxes of ammo to go to the movies?

[WildBill]

Dude, you need to get out of the suburbs! I live in a neighborhood called Pleasantville but it sounds like you’ve spent too much time watching the movie. PLEASE come to my neighborhood…You have to realize that some people see the world very differently and may not value their own life quite as much as you value your own. Your post indicates you do not live in an area typically inhabited or victimized by gangbangers. So, let me offer a rebuttal as someone living in an area that has a well known presence of Crips and plenty of crime that goes well beyond burglary.

This thread should be re-titled "Good Argument FOR Carrying a Six-Shooter.

G.C. - I hope your house-hunting is coming along.

[G.C.Montgomery]

Surprisingly, the search may be over if everything works out. The wife found a home near FM1463. If it all works out, she gets a 20-30 minute commute and I get an oversized garage to use as a workshop. Katy ISD schools is another plus. But what she doesn't know part of the reason I was so agreeable on this house is we'll be twenty minutes from the Impact Zone!!!