Unlicensed open carry in Texas: a proposal

[melkor41]

Would have to change the IWB into an OWB



(stolen from another post on this forum somewhere, my apologies to the origonal poster)

[Liko81]

I have no problem with legalizing open carry (though I would seldom do it myself) but I would not favor unlicensed open carry.

I think unlicensed open carry makes it too easy for criminals and other disqualified persons to "blend in" on the street. Criminal records and records containing other disqualifying information are not readily available to the cop on patrol who might want or need to check someone out. That is one of the main purposes of the background check requirement for getting a license.

Umm, OK. You have a license to open carry, and without that license you are breaking the law by carrying. Your statement that a license would separate legal OCers from illegal infers that a cop could stop you on the street and make you show your carry license. That's like saying a cop could pull you over in your car because it's possible you don't have a DL. If you're innocent until proven guilty, an officer cannot stop you just for walking down the street OCing. That may be fuel for not allowing open carry at all; I'm just saying, just like "concealed means concealed", if OCing is legal at all they have to assume you're completely lawful until you demonstrate otherwise.

The statement that requiring licensing would increase gun owners' training implies that people who OC wouldn't train if it weren't required. That's horse hockey, and even if it were true it would change very little of the ramifications of OCing. You as a gun owner, whether you carry it or not, have a responsibility to know the law. Whether you learn it in a CHL class or by reading the Texas Statutes online makes little difference. I grant that a CHL course that is reviewed by the State would give you the "need to knows" faster and with less chance something will be missed, but the same information taught in a $100 supervised course can be put in a book for $10. As far as competency, scoring a 175 in the CHL course of fire is not exactly difficult, and there are probably many people in Texas who are not CHLs that could score perfect. I'd be one of them; I've done practice runs against the older B-27 standard.

In short, it works in Virginia and 10 other states; it can work here.

[Thane]

I would be in favor of free open carry. I might not do it myself, when off-duty, but I do like the option (here in NM, it's legal, but rare). I'm of the mind of "maximum freedom, with accompanying responsibility." A person who displays their gun on their hip takes on no more or less responsibility than someone who conceals, IMO. Their responsibility is just a little more evident.

'Course, I'm also of the mind that if a person is too dangerous to have a gun, why aren't they still locked up? But that's an issue regarding the judicial system.

[flb_78]

I'm all for unlicensed open carry. I'm pretty sure that's what the framers intended with the 2nd amendment.

Ungoverned firearm ownership by anyone.

[Greybeard]

Even if the votes were there in the Legislature (which is quite doubtful), I'm afraid the passage of open carry would subsequently cause more businesses to exercise the right to prohibit any type of carry on private property. Out of sight, out of mind ...

We've come a looooooong way with the CHL program since the mid 90's and I think there are some far greater priorities for 2009 than beating that drum, potentially even going backwards. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[shootthesheet]

I support it. It is my opinion that it is as elitists for a CHL holder to not support unlicensed open carry by the law abiding as it is for a LEO to not support licensed concealed carry. I was on the fence about it until I researched other states that allow this. The "doom and gloom" is as false there as it was in Texas with CHL. The concerns of being disarmed by a criminal are unsupported by the experiences in these states. And yes, retention holsters are used and the people of these states encourage each other to use them. I have no concern about CHL law being tightened or that an otherwise law abiding citizen will misuse their firearm anymore than I am that trained CHL holders or LEOs will misuse or mishandle their firearm. We do not learn responsibility at that one day class. We don't learn real safe handling or how not to shoot an innocent while defending ourselves. Law abiding people are responsible and learn how to handle a firearm without a class or license or any government intervention what so ever. Will accidents happen, yes. They do now with car carry, LEOs, CHLs and every group that handles firearms.

I am discouraged by any person, who claims to believe in and support the Second Amendment rights of Americans, not supporting any and all recovery of our intended rights. That includes all our rights but especially one we have fought so hard to recover. CHL is a privilege and not a right. Unlicensed carry is a right and the state should be forced to return that right to us. Concealed carry can be argued as necessary to license to control entry into places we all agree no armed person should be. However, open carry should have no licensing by the state at all. The weapon is not hidden and is not a threat to be purposely or accidentally carried into a restricted place. We have laws that cover unlicensed concealed carry and that would not be affected. Nor would CHL laws no more than they are with car carry. Make it separate and open to all who are law abiding. If a felon carries openly or concealed they should be jailed for it as the law requires.

Would I OC, yes. Sometimes, I would. Especially when it is hot and I am not in a crowd. Most of Texas is rural and I hope you who are in the cities remember that. I live in a town with less than 1500 people and a county that could hardly fill a large neighborhood of the DFW area. If your in a heavily populated area, don't do it or get extra training on retention. Here, my worst threat is not offending the sensibilities of people I have known for years. Texas is a large place and diverse. Texans are responsible enough to properly open carry handguns the same way they are with their long guns or CHL or car carry. I do not support restrictions on the "what if" of those who have less faith in Americans than our own founding fathers. Do we, as a people, want to try to ensure safety from accidents and ignorance or do we want to be free?

This is my opinion and I did not intend to offend anyone who believes otherwise.

[DoubleJ]

The open carry would only be used by those who are serious about protecting those that need protecting,

just a thought, and I mean this with no sarcasm, but if you're interesting in protecting people, you could go into Security work. either personal protection, or property protection. prolly end up being able to OpenCarry, too!

[melkor41]

I support it. It is my opinion that it is as elitists for a CHL holder to not support unlicensed open carry by the law abiding as it is for a LEO to not support licensed concealed carry. I was on the fence about it until I researched other states that allow this. The "doom and gloom" is as false there as it was in Texas with CHL. The concerns of being disarmed by a criminal are unsupported by the experiences in these states. And yes, retention holsters are used and the people of these states encourage each other to use them. I have no concern about CHL law being tightened or that an otherwise law abiding citizen will misuse their firearm anymore than I am that trained CHL holders or LEOs will misuse or mishandle their firearm. We do not learn responsibility at that one day class. We don't learn real safe handling or how not to shoot an innocent while defending ourselves. Law abiding people are responsible and learn how to handle a firearm without a class or license or any government intervention what so ever. Will accidents happen, yes. They do now with car carry, LEOs, CHLs and every group that handles firearms.

I am discouraged by any person, who claims to believe in and support the Second Amendment rights of Americans, not supporting any and all recovery of our intended rights. That includes all our rights but especially one we have fought so hard to recover. CHL is a privilege and not a right. Unlicensed carry is a right and the state should be forced to return that right to us. Concealed carry can be argued as necessary to license to control entry into places we all agree no armed person should be. However, open carry should have no licensing by the state at all. The weapon is not hidden and is not a threat to be purposely or accidentally carried into a restricted place. We have laws that cover unlicensed concealed carry and that would not be affected. Nor would CHL laws no more than they are with car carry. Make it separate and open to all who are law abiding. If a felon carries openly or concealed they should be jailed for it as the law requires.

Would I OC, yes. Sometimes, I would. Especially when it is hot and I am not in a crowd. Most of Texas is rural and I hope you who are in the cities remember that. I live in a town with less than 1500 people and a county that could hardly fill a large neighborhood of the DFW area. If your in a heavily populated area, don't do it or get extra training on retention. Here, my worst threat is not offending the sensibilities of people I have known for years. Texas is a large place and diverse. Texans are responsible enough to properly open carry handguns the same way they are with their long guns or CHL or car carry. I do not support restrictions on the "what if" of those who have less faith in Americans than our own founding fathers. Do we, as a people, want to try to ensure safety from accidents and ignorance or do we want to be free?

This is my opinion and I did not intend to offend anyone who believes otherwise.

You have a point.... A very good point, while you have not changed my opinion on the subject, you have changed my voting stance.

While I would never open carry, and would never suggest anyone should... my feelings should not effect their RIGHT to carry openly if they wish...

[DaveT]

But if there was legal unlicensed open carry,
there would not be a need for those
concealed carry badges we are all
so fond of.......

Seriously, whether we split hairs with rights, privileges, licensed carry, unlicensed carry, concealed or open carry, the bottom line is that everyone in Texas being able to wear a gun openly without any sort of license or formal training will never fly, no matter how high it might be on want or wish lists.

Being able to carry open with a license might fly someday, but that is still doubtful.

[drw]

everyone in Texas being able to wear a gun openly without any sort of license or formal training will never fly

How can you confidently assert that, when it is "flying" in other states just fine. Or do you have such a low opinion of Texans, that we cannot handle the kind of freedoms that other states have enjoyed for years?

[Charles L. Cotton]

everyone in Texas being able to wear a gun openly without any sort of license or formal training will never fly

How can you confidently assert that, when it is "flying" in other states just fine. Or do you have such a low opinion of Texans, that we cannot handle the kind of freedoms that other states have enjoyed for years?

I'm not DaveT, but I don't view his statement as having "a low opinion of Texans, . . ." Rather, it a statement of political reality in Texas. The Dallas County DA and others are going to try to "modify" unlicensed car-carry in the 2009 Texas legislative session, so unlicensed open-carry in Texas isn't going to happen.

Chas.

[drw]

I misunderstood what he wrote to mean that it wouldn't fly because of the citizens, not the politicians... Sorry about that, and I appreciate the clarification.

[Charles L. Cotton]

I was planning to stay out of it this time around, but a comment made by one of the Utah instructors in the Utah CFP instructor class I took last Saturday is worthy of mention. Utah allows open carry of a loaded handgun, if you have a Concealed Firearms Permit. If you don't have a CFP, you can open-carry an unloaded handgun. (Unloaded would be a semi-auto with no round in the chamber, or a revolver with the first two chambers in the cylinder empty.)

However, it is very rare for anyone to be seen open-carrying in the larger cities like Salt Lake. Even though it is lawful, on the rare occasions when people do, the police almost always get a "man with a gun" call and they have to respond. If no crime is being committed, then the person is allowed to leave, but they were temporarily detained nonetheless.

I have traveled extensively throughout the country for 25 years or so and I can count on one hand the number of people I have seen open-carrying without a badge on their belt. Yes, it is legal in a number of states, but it sure doesn't seem to be commonplace. There is a reason for that.

Chas.

[frankie_the_yankee]

However, it is very rare for anyone to be seen open-carrying in the larger cities like Salt Lake. Even though it is lawful, on the rare occasions when people do, the police almost always get a "man with a gun" call and they have to respond. If no crime is being committed, then the person is allowed to leave, but they were temporarily detained nonetheless.

I have traveled extensively throughout the country for 25 years or so and I can count on one hand the number of people I have seen open-carrying without a badge on their belt. Yes, it is legal in a number of states, but it sure doesn't seem to be commonplace. There is a reason for that.

Chas.

I hope you don't get flamed, dumped on and shouted down like I did when I made essentially the same observations based on my fairly extensive travel across the USA.

[bdickens]

I think that there is a lot of work to do overcoming widespread hoplophobia in this country before we start considering open carry.