Whats Wrong With Series 80 Pistols?

[dihappy]

Im new into the world of 1911's i'll admit, but whats the big deal with the Series 80 stuff?

Is it just that people want to stay true to the original or are there "real" problems with the 80?
Yeah ive read about it being put in to protect the companies from hungry lawyers, but is it all that bad, is there really a felt difference in triggers?

If it truly helps to keep a dropped gun from going off then i say go for it.

[mr surveyor]

and what history is there of cocked and locked 1911's "going off" when dropped?



one interesting article with good info.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... _n14694932

[Charles L. Cotton]

I don't have any problems with Series 80 Colts. In fact, I alternate carrying a Thunder Ranch Special and a Series 80 Colt Commander. I had Ed Vanden Berg do a lot of work on the Commander, including a competition trigger job. I can't even tell the series 80 parts are in it.

Chas.

[ghostrider]

I think some want to remain true to the original design and others who feel you cannot tune
a Series 80 trigger as well as a Series 70. I don't know how big a deal it really is.

[mr surveyor]

here is a classic from a few years back:


http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/inde ... 02622.html




good topic!

[frankie_the_yankee]

I don't have any problems with Series 80 Colts. In fact, I alternate carrying a Thunder Ranch Special and a Series 80 Colt Commander. I had Ed Vanden Berg do a lot of work on the Commander, including a competition trigger job. I can't even tell the series 80 parts are in it.

Chas.

I know that some people insist that there is a difference in "feel", but I have never been able to detect it myself.

I have a Series 80 Commander that's had an "action job" that breaks cleanly at 3 1/2 lbs. I can't tell any difference between it and my Kimber bullseye gun that has a Series 70 style trigger that also breaks around 3 1/2 lbs. If anything, the Commander might be a bit smoother.

[KBCraig]

I believe the purists' argument goes like this: "If the trigger has to do anything other than trip the sear, the secondary function(s) introduce travel and slop."

On a practical level for most shooters, we're still talking about a single action 1911 trigger. Compared to DA or partially pre-cocked systems, it's practically an instantaneous "bang" switch.

Bullseye shooters, I'm sure, can tell the difference. They're an odd subculture of the shooting sports, so attuned to every nuance that they probably pay attention to latitude so they can adjust for the earth's rotation.

[nitrogen]

I'd be curious how many series 70 pistols AD when dropped. Ever since I got one, I have wondered.
Not wondered enough to not carry it occasionally, but I still wonder.

[gregthehand]

I guess I'll be the first to recount my own reasons why I don't like series 80 1911's at all! This was kind of a scary thing for me to realize and I have actually never spoken about it on here until now. Alot of people don't know it but if you take the rear sight off of a dovetailed series 80 1911 the firing pin block is exposed. I just want to make sure everyone understands that before I tell this story.

Back in 2005 I was still working in law enforcement. One night while trying to detain a guy he tried to fight me and my partner and during the scuffle I fell down on my right side on the concrete interstate. I was in plain clothes and had my 1911 in a Don Hume OWB holster with no thumbstrap. My pistol stayed in it's holster but the side took a dang good whack on the conrete and it marred my holster, my rear dovetail sight and the front of my slide which I had literally paid to have recoated a few weeks before. No big deal. Well a few days (or maybe a week I'm not totally sure) I was cleaning said 1911 and trying to get as much of the scuffs out as I could. The rear sight was just a tad off and I said I was going to have to take it to my gunsmith that day to get it fixed so I could carry it again that night (we were only allowed one duty pistol to qualify and carry with, plus one back-up so just grabbing another 1911 was not an option). Anyway I got done cleaning it and went to perform a function check. The trigger would not pull. I took it apart and put it back together and yet again nothing. It fealt like the safety was on but it was clearely off. I picked up my BUG got in my truck and drove to the gunsmith right then. I told him what had happened (he was sad the nice coating he had put on now looked ugly). He took off my rear sign and reinstalled it (and the firing pin block) correctly and what da ya know? The gun worked just fine. When the sight had moved over just that itty bitty bit it had caught the firing pin block in a bind and put the rest of the trigger action also in a bind. If I had to use my weapon that night after figting the guy, or had I needed it in the week prior it would not have worked and I would probably not have been here to tell this story. Instead all those dang officers who carry Glocks would be saying "I told him he should have gotten a Glock" .

So that is why I dont' carry a series 80 1911. At anytime during a confrontation my pistol could take a good smack and I could be left with a very expensive, very short club. Low chance of happening but it happened to me and scared me good. I had all the firing pin blocks on my series 80s welded shut and I sold that pistol since everytime I looked at it I got a chill up my spine. It scared me that much. You got to think I probably drew that pistol at least once between the fight and when I cleaned it. I could have possibly needed it during the fight, I could have needed it a few days after. What if he had gotten my partners gun? Just too many variables and when it comes to a self defense posture I like to take out as many variables as possible.

Sorry this is a long post but I want to try and convey how this made me feel and how come when it comes to series 80 1911s I just don't play. I know it's a rare occurence that this could happen but guess what? It happened to me and so is the chance you could need to use your weapon! We still prepare anyway.

[flintknapper]

I have no problem with the trigger pull/feel of Series 80 guns.

However, I do have concerns about mechanical failures. I posted here about 2 years ago....a potentially disasterous experience I had with my Series 80 1911.

http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... +series+80


Flint Wrote:

I have a Stainless Para-Ordnance P-13 that I've owned for about 10 years. All in all... it's been a pretty decent pistol. Naturally, its a "series 80" design (meaning it has a firing pin block).

Today while practicing some reloads (not shooting, just reloading from slidelock and dropping the slide on a fresh mag. with a snap-cap). On the third reload...I noticed the slide had not gone all the way into battery, very strange for this pistol. I tapped and racked, same thing. I pushed the slide forward (nothing doing), it wouldn't budge.

I dropped the magazine, pushed the slide back..and engaged the slide stop. Thats when I noticed the plunger (the firing pin block) was hanging out of it's bore about 3/8" inch!

The slide couldn't go back into battery because of this. I immediately disassembled the gun and found that the extractor (a Wilson bullet-proof) had worn in the area that retains the plunger. This had allowed the plunger to take a beating during some recent shooting. It was enough to let it hang out of the slide (but not fall out) when I was practicing.

If this had happened at a time when I needed it most, then woe on me.

I have now removed it (permanently) and will be getting a spacer to replace the "cams" in the frame.

Disclaimer/Warning/Caveat: I am not suggesting anyone perform any modifications to their weapon. I am simply pointing out something that could cause you a problem.

I have many thousands of rounds through this pistol...and a certain amount of "wear and tear" is to be expected... so you might want to look at your extractor if you have a lot of mileage on your pistol.

I thought I was familar with every clearance drill there is for auto pistols, but this one caught me by surprise. The scary part is: It could have cost me my life on a different day...and under different circumstances.

Check 'em out guys and gals!

[TxD]

Alot of people don't know it but if you take the rear sight off of a dovetailed series 80 1911 the firing pin block is exposed. I just want to make sure everyone understands that before I tell this story.

Instead all those dang officers who carry Glocks would be saying "I told him he should have gotten a Glock" .

Greg.
With all due respect, I don't think the Colt series 80 safety system plunger hole extends into the rear sight dove tail.
It is certainly true that the plunger hole on the
Kimber series II safety system extends into the
dovetail.

These are two different systems.

Much misinformation arises, especially on the Internet, because the Kimber system is incorrectly referred to as "series 80".
The situation you described seems to apply to Kimber and not series 80.

Also the plunger on a Glock is very similar to the series 80 plunger.
Hope this helps.

[frankie_the_yankee]

I believe the purists' argument goes like this: "If the trigger has to do anything other than trip the sear, the secondary function(s) introduce travel and slop."

On a practical level for most shooters, we're still talking about a single action 1911 trigger. Compared to DA or partially pre-cocked systems, it's practically an instantaneous "bang" switch.

Bullseye shooters, I'm sure, can tell the difference. They're an odd subculture of the shooting sports, so attuned to every nuance that they probably pay attention to latitude so they can adjust for the earth's rotation.

FWIW, I'm a long time bullseye shooter (around 20 years) and I can't detect any "feel" from the Series 80 hardware in my Commander.

I'm not saying that nobody can. Just that I can't.

I think that the reason Colt adopted the Series 80 setup is because with the original design it is possible for the firing pin to fire the chambered round through inertia, without anyone having pulled the trigger, if the gun is impacted from certain angles.

Another way for an impact fire to occur is for the sear to bounce off the hammer hooks on impact. If the hammer isn't caught on its half-cock step, the gun fires. A weak (or incorrectly adjusted) sear spring, a worn sear or hammer, or a crudely done "trigger job" can allow this to happen. (Also, if the sear spring simply breaks.)

Note that I'm saying merely that it is possible. By "possible" I mean that I can construct a dynamic free body diagram that will evaluate out to the firing pin having enough impetus to overcome the force of the firing pin spring and hit the primer hard enough to make it go off without anyone pulling the trigger.

In other words, it's "physically possible."

I am not familiar with the case history of the 1911 and do not know (for sure) if such a thing has ever happened but I suspect that it has.

With the introduction of the Series 80 plunger design, the firing pin is mechanically locked. If the trigger isn't pulled all the way back, it can't move forward even if the sear or spring fails, the hammer falls, etc.

My own feeling is that approx. 50% of the griping about Series 80 guns derives from the fact that it is a little bit of a pain in the butt to completely detail strip a Series 80 compared to an original design.

I like the Series 80 design myself.

[The Annoyed Man]

I don't know anything (other than what I've read here) about the differences between the Series 70 & 80 designs, but dilhappy said :

If it truly helps to keep a dropped gun from going off then i say go for it.

...to which mr surveyor responded:

and what history is there of cocked and locked 1911's "going off" when dropped?

I thought that the whole reason for the Series 70/80 pistols was to lock the firing pin unless the trigger is actually being pulled, whether or not the hammer is cocked. The pre-Series 70/80 1911-A1 design potentially allows the firing pin to bounce forward against the firing pin spring under its own momentum if the pistol is dropped - particularly if it lands muzzle down - and there are still probably hundreds of thousands of those particular models still in circulation. In fact, I own one of 1943 vintage. It wouldn't matter if a 1911-A1 was cocked and locked or not under such a scenario since the only thing restraining the pin from forward motion is the spring. If there is a round chambered, it is possible for the pin to jump forward far enough to strike the primer of a chambered round. The Series 70/80 designs are supposed to lock the pin in place unless the trigger is pulled.

...or at least, that is what I've read about it. But my point is that "cocked and locked" is not what keeps a dropped pistol from accidentally discharging. It is the firing pin block that is part of the Series 70/80 design that performs that function, cocked and locked, or hammer down.

Please feel free to disabuse me of the notion if I'm wrong about that. It won't be the first time I've ever been wrong about something.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Annoyed,

You're correct. Cocked & locked has nothing to do with it. If the gun has a round in the chamber it can impact fire whether the hammer is cocked or not.

But to keep clear, the Series 80 has the firing pin block while the Series 70 does not.


Greg,

The hole that the firing pin plunger rides in does not extend up through the slide on my Series 80 Gold Cup Commander. Of course this model has an adjustable rear sight (the Eliason type) that is mounted via a screw and a roll pin, not a dovetail type like what you were referring to.


Flint,

Any mechanical device can fail.

[flintknapper]

Flint,

Any mechanical device can fail.

Yes, I know. I experienced it first hand.