Springfield hellcat POI is off

[OneGun]

So, I don't know if this your situation, but yesterday at the range, two gents were shooting at 5-yards and consistently hitting low, left. I suggested they not squeeze their fingers when they pull the trigger. This was pushing their shots low and left. When they made a conscience effort not to squeeze their fingers when the pulled the trigger, their hits were center and higher. They had a little trouble with compensating for muzzle flip, but I got them back on center target.

Small guns require adjustments to grip compared to larger guns. Easy to develop some inconvenient habits. If you had gun vise, you could tell if the problem was PEBT (Problem Exists Behind Trigger) or is the sight alignment.

[Medley86]

Thanks for all the advice, I'm going to borrow a pistol rest and try some other ammo weights before I change the sights. I will probably try 20-25 yards once I get it hitting more centered. I do a fair amount of shooting with my 4.5" gun out at 30-50 yards, thats probably not going to happen much with a 3" barrel though. It's milled for rds and I may just invest in one.

[SQLGeek]

Just don't pigeonhole yourself to be an arm's length shooter.

I meant for sighting in a smaller defensive pistol. I'd rather be dead on at 7-10 yards.

I shoot 15-25 yards with my Shield routinely.

[Medley86]

Finally got in some different bullet weights to try, Shooting off a rest the left goes away so that's all me. The low is still there but probably a function of range. It is somewhat ammo sensitive in that some weights do group much better than others. So far 124 groups the best so that's probably what I'll end up sticking with. Since I have determined that the left is all down to something I'm doing, what should I do to correct it? When I dry fire I don't have a problem with the sights dipping as I would expect from the hits on target with live ammo. With the 124 grain I was consistently grouping about 2" left and 1.5" low. Of course I plan on more practice, just wondering if anyone else has any tips for these small guns. I don't have any problem with a full size, but with this micro compact its a whole different story.

[strogg]

A trick I learned is to put a snap cap or two somewhere in the magazine. It's best to have a friend load them so you have no idea where they are. Then you can be much more aware of when and how you flinch when it occurs. It is also helpful to do that to practice clearing malfunctions.

Also, are you using magazines with the pinkie rest? Or is your pinkie dangling? I found that with the way I shoot, the pinkie on the grip increases accuracy and recoil control by a wide margin. My groups shrink, I have zero flinch, felt recoil feels less, and the sights magically go back on target after every shot. It's not as quick as a full size, but it's very manageable. It's amazing what a pinkie finger can do to stabilize a pistol. After I found that out with an LC9s I had, I've decided that pocket-sized 9mm pistols are not for me.

[Medley86]

A trick I learned is to put a snap cap or two somewhere in the magazine. It's best to have a friend load them so you have no idea where they are. Then you can be much more aware of when and how you flinch when it occurs. It is also helpful to do that to practice clearing malfunctions.

Also, are you using magazines with the pinkie rest? Or is your pinkie dangling? I found that with the way I shoot, the pinkie on the grip increases accuracy and recoil control by a wide margin. My groups shrink, I have zero flinch, felt recoil feels less, and the sights magically go back on target after every shot. It's not as quick as a full size, but it's very manageable. It's amazing what a pinkie finger can do to stabilize a pistol. After I found that out with an LC9s I had, I've decided that pocket-sized 9mm pistols are not for me.

All my mags have enough room for my pinkie. The stock 11 rd has an extension that is ok. The 13 rd mags I can grip pretty well, the gun came with 1 and I ordered 2 spares so they are pretty much all I use. There is very little size difference between the 11 with the extension and the 13s so my plan is to just always carry the larger and use the short one if I need a 4th practicing.

[Medley86]

Since I have determined that the left is all down to something I'm doing, what should I do to correct it?

The length of your trigger isn't ideal for the length of your trigger-finger (a little too long is most common) - and/or you were snatching the trigger at the last instant to "make" the pistol fire, causing the muzzle to move slightly left, as the rear of the pistol-grip is rotating around the pivot-point of the web of your shooting hand.

Shoot slower and more deliberately, making sure to pull the tigger straight back without favoring one side or another.

When I dry fire I don't have a problem with the sights dipping

That's because you KNOW it's empty - so you're not flinching then. Flinching is mostly nudging the muzzle downward to try and control the recoil (before it even starts) - this is caused by pulling the trigger too fast (right at the end to try and "make" the pistol fire and get it over with). Because you know that it's about to go bang and recoil at that instant, you're nudging the muzzle down and the shot strikes low.

Overall, you need to fight that urge to control exactly when the pistol fires - instead, "let" the pistol fire in its own time - your job is to keep the sights aligned as best you can until that happens. Pull the trigger back steadily and (this is the hardest part) stop trying to make it fire; allow it to happen. This is the 'surprise break' - if you do it correctly, you get surprised when the shot goes off.

This gun has a pretty good wall on the trigger so I don't think I'm jerking it but it might be pushing to keep the muzzle down on the shot. The more I'm shooting it the groups are getting better. It may just take me time to adjust to it. The size to capacity on it is great and I think it will make a great carry gun, it's barely bigger than my old LCP with a bigger caliber and double the capacity. Thanks for the advice I'll keep practicing with it and I'm sure it will get better. Realistically I'm probably accurate enough now but it's still not good enough for me, I would like to get good enough to hit consistently out to 25 yards or so.

[Maxwell]

What kind of sight picture are you using? I don't have a Hellcat, but when I got my Sig P290, I constantly shot low. Found that I was not using the correct sight picture. I was trying to use the center hold sight picture, where the top of my sights would split the target in half. I then learned that the Sig pistol was set up for "combat sight picture" where you align the dots on the front and rear like normal, but you cover the center of the target with the dot.

Not sure if that is your issue, but just a thought.

This is very possible. I found most non-American designed (Sig, Walther, HK, many Beretta, etc. ) use the combat sight picture. The Hellcat is an HS Product (Croatia) so it probably does the same which would account for the low hits. For the left/right you are probably not jerking, but you may be pushing, look at your trigger finger placement. It is a different grip than you're use to and that affects where your finger is. If shooting left, add more finger, in other words move the trigger closer to you first crease in your finger (for right handed shooters). If shooting right, move the trigger closer to the tip of your finger.

Every gun is different. The Hellcat is a nice little piece of work but you will always have growing pains new kitten (all puns intended...)

If all of that doesn't work, adjust the damn sights to fit your personal style.

[Rafe]

If shooting left, add more finger, in other words move the trigger closer to you first crease in your finger (for right handed shooters). If shooting right, move the trigger closer to the tip of your finger.

Yep. My general thoughts exactly, but I'm no professional instructor and what I've told friends/acquaintances sorta flies in the face of the traditional maxim that the handgun must always be aligned with the forearm. So I've just gone by experience.

Seems to me the inline-with-forearm kinda went by the wayside once high-speed sport shooting taught us that the straight-ahead two-handed isosceles stance, with the body pivoting at the hips, was the best way to get fast hits accurately. If you're in a full isosceles stance, the muzzle of the gun can never align with the forearm. In an isosceles, the muzzle is perpendicular to the shoulders and in line with the center of the chest. You can't do that without bending your strong-side wrist...unless you're pulling the trigger with the base of the index finger.

I've taught a number of people with small hands to shoot--well, in truth, introduced them to handgun shooting, not "taught" them anything. And my take has always been, since we usually aren't talking about S&W 500s hunting revolvers or ultra-compact 10mm jackhammers here, that trigger manipulation always outranks recoil control. Varies of course between long-stroke double-action guns, fairly mushy striker-fired (like Glocks; luv em', but the basic factory trigger isn't anything to write home about), and the trigger king, the 1911, but I tell folks to adjust their position on the grip to match the best trigger-finger placement, and to not worry about the in-line with forearm thing. We always prefer to shoot two-handed, after all.

So for me the trick is consistent finger placement that allows first trigger contact to shot break to follow-through with the least possible lateral pressure on the trigger. A straight-back push. It's also a good way to teach follow-through and trigger reset. But if someone's grip is a few degrees off alignment with the forearm, but the trigger press is as stable as possible, I consider that a proper grip for that individual on that particular gun. Also found that a laser, if mounted, or a laser bore-sighter, was a good way to see visually the very slight muzzle movements when dry-firing...after they get comfortable with a standard sight picture and after the discussion about natural sight wobble. Seeing how sensitive the point-of-impact is to just heartbeat and breathing can freak-out new shooters.

[Medley86]

What kind of sight picture are you using? I don't have a Hellcat, but when I got my Sig P290, I constantly shot low. Found that I was not using the correct sight picture. I was trying to use the center hold sight picture, where the top of my sights would split the target in half. I then learned that the Sig pistol was set up for "combat sight picture" where you align the dots on the front and rear like normal, but you cover the center of the target with the dot.

Not sure if that is your issue, but just a thought.

This is very possible. I found most non-American designed (Sig, Walther, HK, many Beretta, etc. ) use the combat sight picture. The Hellcat is an HS Product (Croatia) so it probably does the same which would account for the low hits. For the left/right you are probably not jerking, but you may be pushing, look at your trigger finger placement. It is a different grip than you're use to and that affects where your finger is. If shooting left, add more finger, in other words move the trigger closer to you first crease in your finger (for right handed shooters). If shooting right, move the trigger closer to the tip of your finger.

Every gun is different. The Hellcat is a nice little piece of work but you will always have growing pains new kitten (all puns intended...)

If all of that doesn't work, adjust the damn sights to fit your personal style.

Shot it some more today, only 30 rounds but if I use a combat hold and move my finger deeper on the trigger it is pretty close to dead on. Even when I started picking up the pace it still didn't drift too much. All 30 would have stayed in the black on a torso target. Thanks for the advice guys it really helped. There is a new micro red dot that is supposed to release soon designed to work on the hellcat that if it is priced around what the other dots the company make will definitely be picked up and installed which will mean a whole new learning curve. It would be terrible if I was forced to shoot a few hundred more rounds a year to stay proficient with another gun.

[Maxwell]

What kind of sight picture are you using? I don't have a Hellcat, but when I got my Sig P290, I constantly shot low. Found that I was not using the correct sight picture. I was trying to use the center hold sight picture, where the top of my sights would split the target in half. I then learned that the Sig pistol was set up for "combat sight picture" where you align the dots on the front and rear like normal, but you cover the center of the target with the dot.

Not sure if that is your issue, but just a thought.

This is very possible. I found most non-American designed (Sig, Walther, HK, many Beretta, etc. ) use the combat sight picture. The Hellcat is an HS Product (Croatia) so it probably does the same which would account for the low hits. For the left/right you are probably not jerking, but you may be pushing, look at your trigger finger placement. It is a different grip than you're use to and that affects where your finger is. If shooting left, add more finger, in other words move the trigger closer to you first crease in your finger (for right handed shooters). If shooting right, move the trigger closer to the tip of your finger.

Every gun is different. The Hellcat is a nice little piece of work but you will always have growing pains new kitten (all puns intended...)

If all of that doesn't work, adjust the damn sights to fit your personal style.

Shot it some more today, only 30 rounds but if I use a combat hold and move my finger deeper on the trigger it is pretty close to dead on. Even when I started picking up the pace it still didn't drift too much. All 30 would have stayed in the black on a torso target. Thanks for the advice guys it really helped. There is a new micro red dot that is supposed to release soon designed to work on the hellcat that if it is priced around what the other dots the company make will definitely be picked up and installed which will mean a whole new learning curve. It would be terrible if I was forced to shoot a few hundred more rounds a year to stay proficient with another gun.

Glad to hear it!

[Crash]

I've fired about 200 rounds from my Hellcat (had it about 1 1/2 months) and the POI is right on out to about 15 yards. Haven't shot it at 25 yards yet, but will my next time at the range. However, I really don't believe that a self-defense situation is likely to start that far away--bad guys usually wait until they are right up on you to attack. I've never had a 9mm that shoots as accurately as the Hellcat. The only problem I've had is several failures-to-feed with Winchester Train ammo. Usually failed to feed if it was the first or the last round in the magazine. Doesn't surprise me because I've had failures-to-feed with both the Winchester Train and the Winchester Defend in other pistols. With more than 150 rounds of two other brands of FMJs, both 115 grain and 124 grain, I've had no problems at all.

Crash

[txhighlander]

My wife purchased a Hellcat and she loves hers. However I don't like it at all but I shoot it very well. Go figure. It has the yellow loaded front sight with the white outlined u notch rear. At 15 yards an in it puts the rounds where you want. I haven't shot it further as of yet. We have about 300 rounds thru it with only one fail to go into battery. Pushed slide forward and continued on. Happy shooting.