Paul Harrell video regarding "hyper ammo"

[SQLGeek]

Something to keep in mind with Paul's recommendations is that he has been through the legal system after a self defense shooting.

http://www.wallowa.com/20070619/harrell ... y-shooting

I think that experience would also color his recommendations.

[JustSomeOldGuy]

So Mill's group was there to 'go fishing' and they invited Harrell to have a drink/go to a bar with them? That's what I hate about public campgrounds, particularly in conjunction to a major holiday. Outdoor bacchanalia with attendant anti-social behaviour. I'm betting if they had checked Mill's BAC, they would have found it was illegal for him to drive the pickup he was using for vehicular assault.

[Liberty]

What I most admire about Paul Harrell's videos is that he is not afraid to think outside the box. Whether or not we agree with him all points is irrelevant, He can stimulate us into rethinking the things we might have just assumed.

I believe he has a point though about the hyper precious ammunition, especially those that make outlandish claims of instant lethality.

The only issue I have is that inexpensive defencive rounds aren't always that available. I keep 3 defensive handguns all 3 are 9mm of older design. I believe they were designed nominally for 124gr bullets. That isn't saying that that won't work within a range of 115 - 145grs, but It has also been my experiance that 124 is my sweet spot for accuracy.
The issue I have had is a hard time finding, non Hyper ammo at 124gr. I've been thinking about Sig Saur for my next purchase, Its still more than twice what I've been paying for than my range ammunition.

I don't really understand why this stuff costs so much. Most of this premium stuff costs more than 5.56 NATO or even decent .308 ammo.

[The Annoyed Man]

All of his testing is done with pistol ammo, so his results cannot be imputed to rifle ammo. That's a totally different animal.

Chas.

All I’m saying is that, excluding novelty types of hyper ammo - i.e. RIP and other such “newfangled” designs - it seems a generally valid principle that, just as I have noticed that premium rifle ammo generally performs better than cheap cheap plinker ammo, that this principle might also generally apply to pistol ammo......not naming a specific round, but just as a general principle. It goes without saying that you should test your chosen carry ammo for POA/POI, and I would never say differently. In fact, I would always advocate for doing that. Unlike you, I don’t currently have a buddy working as a SWAT officer, but I do have a cop in the family (River Oaks PD), and I can always ask him what he carries. OR, I can ask one of my local PD cops. Most of the cops I’ve spoken to over the years are carrying some version of a premium ammo load - Gold Dots, Hydro-Shoks, HST, Critical Duty, etc., etc. So I carry those. But, I do test them for POA/POI, and I wouldn’t carry them if they don’t shoot to point of aim.

In fact, I’ve got a problem right now with my G26 shooting low, with both premium 135 grain +P FTX, and 115 grain WWB FMJ. Further, it did the same thing when a friend of mine shot the gun - at the same range on the same day, using the same ammo. I’m a lefty and he’s a righty. I’m assuming that I have a problem with sight height rather than ammo and I’m pursuing that possibility. Both ammo types shoot to point of aim in my G17 and G19, and in my G43, so it has to be a problem with sight height.

But I agree with Harrell that whether you choose to carry Buscadero Ticondas or Winchester White Box, it shouldn’t be so precious to you that you refuse to shoot any of it, if only just to test it, and remind yourself once in a while what it feels like to shoot it, even if you can’t necessarily afford to regularly train with it.

[oljames3]

I use 115 grain Winchester White Box FMJ and JHP in my S&W M&P M2.0 9mm 5inch, as does my wife in her Walther PPS M2 LE. Or Remington Green and White JHP if Walmart does not have WWB JHP in stock. These rounds perform acceptable, for us, in gel tests I have read. They are accurate, accessible, and affordable. I start each range session or USPSA match by shooting at least one magazine of my JHP carry ammo. Thus, I'm buying a box of JHP every few months as I expend my carry ammo on the range, in training, and in competition. I have a similar routine for my back up Ruger LCR .38 in that I'll empty it and reload every few months. Not because I worry about the ammo, but because I want to be able to remember how to shoot it. Your mileage will vary.

[Paladin]

I carried WWB personal defense .45ACP hollowpoints for a while. Tests I've seen show they are decent performers.

But I prefer to carry the best ammo I can find and Gold Dot and HST are both very good.

Massad Ayoob, who is from the Northeast, looked intensely at the legal aspects of these things and indicates that hollow points are more likely to stop a criminal than FMJ's. Stopping a criminal with FMJ's may take so many rounds that the criminal more likely won't survive and FMJ's will likely over-penetrate:

Massad Ayoob: Is hollowpoint the best defensive ammo for concealed carry?

Massad Ayoob: Police ammo for the rest of us?

Agree with the video that carrying something named RIP or Zombie-whatever is un-PC at best.

[WTR]

I carried WWB personal defense .45ACP hollowpoints for a while. Tests I've seen show they are decent performers.

But I prefer to carry the best ammo I can find and Gold Dot and HST are both very good.

Massad Ayoob, who is from the Northeast, looked intensely at the legal aspects of these things and indicates that hollow points are more likely to stop a criminal than FMJ's. Stopping a criminal with FMJ's may take so many rounds that the criminal more likely won't survive and FMJ's will likely over-penetrate:

Massad Ayoob: Is hollowpoint the best defensive ammo for concealed carry?

Massad Ayoob: Police ammo for the rest of us?

Agree with the video that carrying something named RIP or Zombie-whatever is un-PC at best.

I trust Masaad Ayoob more than a UTUBER. Masaad book combat shooting has a great chapter on ammo selection and he stays with premium self defense ammo that has been proven in line of duty. I highly recommend reading the book if you haven’t.

Harrell is much more than a UTUBER. He has an impressive resume and has been envolved in a deadly shooting.

[mrvmax]

I carried WWB personal defense .45ACP hollowpoints for a while. Tests I've seen show they are decent performers.

But I prefer to carry the best ammo I can find and Gold Dot and HST are both very good.

Massad Ayoob, who is from the Northeast, looked intensely at the legal aspects of these things and indicates that hollow points are more likely to stop a criminal than FMJ's. Stopping a criminal with FMJ's may take so many rounds that the criminal more likely won't survive and FMJ's will likely over-penetrate:

Massad Ayoob: Is hollowpoint the best defensive ammo for concealed carry?

Massad Ayoob: Police ammo for the rest of us?

Agree with the video that carrying something named RIP or Zombie-whatever is un-PC at best.

I trust Masaad Ayoob more than a UTUBER. Masaad book combat shooting has a great chapter on ammo selection and he stays with premium self defense ammo that has been proven in line of duty. I highly recommend reading the book if you haven’t.

Keep in mind that Ayoob bases a lot of his advice being exposed to anti-gun and liberal parts of the US. Much of his advice reflects that and it may not always apply to us in Texas. He does have good info but it needs to be kept in perspective.

[Charles L. Cotton]

I carried WWB personal defense .45ACP hollowpoints for a while. Tests I've seen show they are decent performers.

But I prefer to carry the best ammo I can find and Gold Dot and HST are both very good.

Massad Ayoob, who is from the Northeast, looked intensely at the legal aspects of these things and indicates that hollow points are more likely to stop a criminal than FMJ's. Stopping a criminal with FMJ's may take so many rounds that the criminal more likely won't survive and FMJ's will likely over-penetrate:

Massad Ayoob: Is hollowpoint the best defensive ammo for concealed carry?

Massad Ayoob: Police ammo for the rest of us?

Agree with the video that carrying something named RIP or Zombie-whatever is un-PC at best.

I trust Masaad Ayoob more than a UTUBER. Masaad book combat shooting has a great chapter on ammo selection and he stays with premium self defense ammo that has been proven in line of duty. I highly recommend reading the book if you haven’t.

Keep in mind that Ayoob bases a lot of his advice being exposed to anti-gun and liberal parts of the US. Much of his advice reflects that and it may not always apply to us in Texas. He does have good info but it needs to be kept in perspective.

That may be true but I certainly haven’t detected that in his book combat shooting. Also remember a lot of what he says regarding ammunition and calibers is based on real world experience not only from himself but other officer and departments as well. I am no expert by any means but Ayoob has been there and done that and seen the results of ammunition on human tissue. He has extensive connections throughout the law enforcement community from which to interview and research.

I know Mas personally and I have the utmost respect for him and his experience. He does correctly address the possible bias against gun owners and self-defense shootings, but as mrvmax noted, he's in the anti-gun northeast. What is a potential problem in New Hampshire is not necessarily a problem in Texas. Also, having talked with Mas several times over the years, I can assure you that he would agree with Paul that people should test any ammo they carry in their gun and that they should practice extensively with the same ammo they carry. He would never condone practicing with Winchester white box, but carry Gold Dots, Ranger, etc.

Paul's experience is extensive and your comment about a youtuber indicates you are not aware of it. You also seem to believe that what Mas teaches contradicts Paul's extensive testing. That's hardly the case. Paul's testing does not show, nor does he claim, that hyper ammo doesn't work or that it is inferior. (Ironically, much of the hyper ammo is inferior to other brands that fall in the hyper ammo category.) His testing shows that, with very few exceptions, most hyper ammo is not significantly better performers than other quality ammo at a lower price. You cann't rely upon so-called real experience of agencies that use only hyper ammo. If no one uses Remington green box JHP's, then their experience with hyper ammo means nothing in terms of comparison.

As I noted before, many years experience as a firearms instructor has proven to me that people simply will not practice with ammo that costs $1+/round. They shoot practice ammo, but carry something else. That's Paul's major issue with hyper ammo. He never said it's a poor performer. He points to other issues that make it a poor choice for most people who have to buy their own ammo.

Chas.

[Scott B.]

The majority of the folks this video is aimed at are probably buying their 'hyper' ammo in overpriced boxes of 20. If you're buying boxes of 50 count then you hopefully have a few things figured out.

The most Gold Dot 124 +P I've shot in one sitting was around 78 rounds for a shoot test in a class.

My own brush with 'hyper' ammo was with RBCD ammunition. Anybody remember that stuff? My father swore by it. Had tested it on turkey carcasses and considered it to be the bees knees. I finally convinced him that it was time give it up since the company that made it no longer existed!