Red Dot Magnifiers - Please School Me

[Abraham]

I see red dot sights combined with magnifiers and wonder why not simply buy a red dot illuminated magnified scope which is all in one piece?

Is getting a red dot sight plus magnifier give you the option of removing the magnifier if you so choose?

Is that really an option many take advantage of, if in fact that's the benefit?

Seems once you got it set up, it'd be a pain to remove the magnifier.

So, what do I not know?

Thanks!

[Lynyrd]

I have a EOTech red dot holographic sight on my AR with zero magnification. The benefit is fast target acquisition shooting with both eyes open. You move your eyes to the target and then swing the gun until the dot is in front of the target. With a little practice this is very smooth and very fast. I have killed up to 4 hogs in less than 3 seconds under my feeder light with this set up before they could run into the brush. Any magnification slows target acquisition down, at least for me, and especially so on short distances.

But, if I need to make a 150 yard shot, my eyes are not good enough to be accurate at that distance without some magnification. The flip over magnifier in front of the sight gives me what I need. It's the best of both worlds, at least for me.

[chasfm11]

I have a EOTech red dot holographic sight on my AR with zero magnification. The benefit is fast target acquisition shooting with both eyes open. You move your eyes to the target and then swing the gun until the dot is in front of the target. With a little practice this is very smooth and very fast. I have killed up to 4 hogs in less than 3 seconds under my feeder light with this set up before they could run into the brush. Any magnification slows target acquisition down, at least for me, and especially so on short distances.

But, if I need to make a 150 yard shot, my eyes are not good enough to be accurate at that distance without some magnification. The flip over magnifier in front of the sight gives me what I need. It's the best of both worlds, at least for me.

I spoke with someone who has a similar setup to what you describe. He was thrilled with holograph portion but said that he had not been able to achieve consistent results with the flipdown magnification. I assumed that he might have an a mounting stability issue on the rail but wanted to ask about your experience. I'm really interested in this setup but it looks like $1,000+ investment and I want to get it right.

[Abraham]

Lynyrd,

Thanks.

"The flip over magnifier in front of the sight gives me what I need."

I can only imagine what that set up looks like, I'll google it.

I have a red dot 1-4 illuminated scope on one AR and I love it. I can turn it down to less than 1 magnification and it allows immediate close up target acquisition.

Plus, I recently bought an M7 Lucid micro red dot sight on sale at Primary Arms for $99.00 (normally $189.00) that I installed on a 9mm pistol carbine and love it, but wondered how I'd go about installing magnification or if doing so would be in my best interest?

Though, such magnification isn't really necessary as I don't think I'll be shooting more than 50yds. As it is, I can consistently hit within a 3" group at that distance. Not great, but good enough if Johnny Jihad presents a threat.

Anyway, thanks again for the information.

[LSUTiger]

My 2 cents:

I have tried Aimpoints and Eotechs and prefer them with out the magnifier. They work, but have downsides.

Aimpoints-I see the reticles as a blob but that's my eyesight, with glasses I see it as it should be, perfect dot. Battery life is awesome and they are built like tanks. The compM4 and M4s have the AA batteries ($800) but are pricey but nice, I have a PRO ($400) and the only problem is finding batteries for it.

Eotech-I like the reticle better, but battery life, and other issues like leaks in the glass and zero drift have made be go to aimpoint. ($400-600)

I tried the Eotech flip side magnifier and while they work, they tend to add lots of weight and unbalance the gun when flipped to oneside. ($400 512 and $400 magnifier, $800 Total)

I have the Primary Arms 1-6x scope with ACSS reticle, so for it has been a good illuminated CQB/intermediate range scope combo. I like them better than the red dot/magnifier combo. ($269)

http://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms ... -paps1-6x/

http://www.primaryarms.com/vortex-strik ... se-1624-1/ ($329)

Probably the best CQB/fixed power scope combo is the Trijicon ACOG if you can afford it. ($1200-1700) It's worth considering if you are gonna spend $800+ on a red dot and magnifier.

[The Annoyed Man]

You can mount the magnifier on a flip-to-side mount. It stays mounted, but it can be swung out of the way until you need it. I have such a system for an EOTech I own. That said, and after having lived with the system for several years, I stopped using it as it wasn't an ideal solution, in no small part because the all up weight of the system was too heavy.

Instead, I have two optics for my carbine: an Aimpoint T2 Micro, and a 4x32 BAC ACOG. Both optics are mated to BOBRO mounts which guarantee return to zero of .5 MOA or better on remounting. (In actual independent testing, they far exceed their own standard, besting other brands, and returning to within .13 MOA of zero.) I have both optics pre-zeroed, and the mounts are QD type with a single lever, so switching back and forth is a matter of a few seconds.

Now, that is perhaps not the optimum solution in the middle of a firefight, but I have no intention of looking for a firefight. I keep the T2 mounted for personal/home defense, and the ACOG in reserve for situations like hunting where I have the luxury of time to make the switch. The T2 is zeroed for 50 yards, which means that if my decrepit eyes can see the target, I can reliably hit center of mass out to about 200 yards or so. The ACOG is zeroed for 100 yards, so that I can take advantage of the reticle at longer distances if necessary.

My other AR is a DMR designed for longer range shooting, and it has a variable power Bushnell 1-6.5x24mm SMRS Elite Tactical scope, and a 18" heavy barrel versus the carbine's 16" medium contour barrel. The Bushnell is a pretty nice optic, but mount included, it is much heavier than either the T2 Micro or the 4x32 BAC ACOG; and my goal in parts choice and building the above mentioned carbine was lightness as a primary virtue. The Bushnell is not a RDS.

I realize that my solution of two optics for one carbine is prohibitively expensive for most people, and I am blessed to have been able to afford it. That is why I more often than not recommend to people that a variable power scope in the 1-4x, 1-5x, 1-6x ranges will serve most people better than an RDS with a magnifier. You will have the advantages of better glass, higher magnification, and a usable reticle for both ranging purposes and bullet drop compensation. And when dialed down to 1x, these scopes are very nearly as good as an RDS for CQB.

[Abraham]

LSUTiger & TAM,

You guys are a wealth of great information.

Thanks!

[Lynyrd]

I'm really interested in this setup but it looks like $1,000+ investment and I want to get it right.

I understand your desire to "get it right." But, when it comes to AR's, customization is what makes them so versatile. What's "right" for one guy may not be right for another. I live way back in the woods and have a big hog problem. My setup is designed for my situation. If I had a different situation, I would probably want a different set up. Some said they didn't like the extra weight. It's a trade off that doesn't bother me.

No one setup is the best of everything. I can't afford to have several AR's in my safe, so I tried to build what works for me. Think about how you're going to use it, and go from there.

[Richbirdhunter]

I see red dot sights combined with magnifiers and wonder why not simply buy a red dot illuminated magnified scope which is all in one piece?

Is getting a red dot sight plus magnifier give you the option of removing the magnifier if you so choose?

Is that really an option many take advantage of, if in fact that's the benefit?

Seems once you got it set up, it'd be a pain to remove the magnifier.

So, what do I not know?

Thanks!

The magnifier flips out of the way when not in use.

[Abraham]

Lynyrd,

I know what you're talking about as my yard was in a state of constant repair from the depredations of feral hogs.

I'd get up in the morning, look out to see my yard looking like a root plow had been at work!

I used to shoot hogs from my back porch, but finally had a fence installed enclosing my property.

No more hog problems, but no more meat either.

I hope you eat some of them?

[The Annoyed Man]

I'm really interested in this setup but it looks like $1,000+ investment and I want to get it right.

I understand your desire to "get it right." But, when it comes to AR's, customization is what makes them so versatile. What's "right" for one guy may not be right for another. I live way back in the woods and have a big hog problem. My setup is designed for my situation. If I had a different situation, I would probably want a different set up. Some said they didn't like the extra weight. It's a trade off that doesn't bother me.

No one setup is the best of everything. I can't afford to have several AR's in my safe, so I tried to build what works for me. Think about how you're going to use it, and go from there.

This is very true. When a gun is as easily customizable for its primary mission as an AR is, you ought to pick the optic system that works best for that general scenario. But if you are looking more of a general purpose optic, then some kind of ability to dial in magnification is a must. Also chasfm11, Abraham, and I are in roughly the same age group, and our priorities might place a heavier emphasis on magnification and light weight than it would for a younger person with sharper eyes.

chasfm11, we should do a range trip soon so that you can try the three optics I've mentioned above for yourself to see if that helps you to narrow your choices somewhat.

[allisji]

Good discussion as I'm also currently considering getting an 1-6X scope or a red dot sight for my AR. I keep going back and forth, but ultimately I think that a 1-6X scope is likely the better option for me. Perhaps I install a TLR-2 or something like that for home defense.

[EODgunner]

Yes, the AR is supper easy to go from set ups meant to shoot from 6 inches to 600 meters. But if you actually start having to carry it around then you start looking away from cool factor and start looking a weight and bulk and your weapon and what you put on it. So the combo of eotech and magnifier is 22.4 oz ( http://www.eotechinc.com/holographic-we ... -magnifier ). Thats the nice small one. A comparable scope like the leupold Mark 4 CQ/T rifle scope ( https://www.leupold.com/tactical/scopes ... flescopes/ ) is 17.5 oz. Now thats really next to nothing in weight difference. But lets look at it both would require you to reach up and manually do something to magnify or un-magnify the optic. So no win ether way. The leupold is a complete package that is going to cost more while the eotech is going to be cheaper and is two different parts. So I would call it a break even but people can and will float to one or the other due to purchasing power and wants. You can buy the leupold with a BDC which is real nice but if you know the specs on the eotech's sight you'll know that you can do a lot with it and it really can work well for someone from that 6 inch to 600m. I hope this has shown you that there are some options. My advice for you is to figure out what the primay purpose of the firearm will be and try real hard to keep that in mind when you finally decide.

[RHenriksen]

Vortex has a pretty good reputation as a lower cost, but still solid quality source for red dots & magnifiers. I've just added a sparc II onto my primary AR, and zeroed it in last weekend at 50 yards. I'll be doing a carbine class Mon/Tu/Wed evenings this week, and since I expect it'll be mostly close range exercises, left off the flip-out magnifier for now for weight considerations.

After the class, I'm going to make another range visit to re-zero the red dot placed further down the upper receiver, and add the magnifier back into & see how that goes.

[The Annoyed Man]

Yes, the AR is supper easy to go from set ups meant to shoot from 6 inches to 600 meters. But if you actually start having to carry it around then you start looking away from cool factor and start looking a weight and bulk and your weapon and what you put on it. So the combo of eotech and magnifier is 22.4 oz ( http://www.eotechinc.com/holographic-we ... -magnifier ). Thats the nice small one. A comparable scope like the leupold Mark 4 CQ/T rifle scope ( https://www.leupold.com/tactical/scopes ... flescopes/ ) is 17.5 oz. Now thats really next to nothing in weight difference. But lets look at it both would require you to reach up and manually do something to magnify or un-magnify the optic. So no win ether way. The leupold is a complete package that is going to cost more while the eotech is going to be cheaper and is two different parts. So I would call it a break even but people can and will float to one or the other due to purchasing power and wants. You can buy the leupold with a BDC which is real nice but if you know the specs on the eotech's sight you'll know that you can do a lot with it and it really can work well for someone from that 6 inch to 600m. I hope this has shown you that there are some options. My advice for you is to figure out what the primay purpose of the firearm will be and try real hard to keep that in mind when you finally decide.

Hey EODgunner, I confess that I hadn't considered the Mark 4 CQ/T. Leupold makes a good product.

When I compare it to the 4x32 BAC ACOG, there is a weight difference. I just weighed my 4x32 BAC ACOG's all up weight on my wife's kitchen scale, including the scope, the BOBRO mount, and the Trijicon/Tenebrex ARD, and it was 14.75 oz. Without the ARD, it is 14.0 oz for the scope and mount. The scope by itself is 9.9 oz.

No, the ACOG is not a variable power optic. But:

1. It is in roughly the same price range (well over $1k).
2. It has glass that easily rivals Leupold's quality.
3. The "BAC" aiming system is designed to work at all distances with both eyes open, despite it being a fixed power optic. (I've tried it, and it's not a perfect system, but it does work.)
4. It needs no batteries to illuminate the reticle, and even after the (factory replaceable) tritium lamp has lost its mojo, the fiber optic still works in daylight and will collect the light from a weapon mounted light at night, and (like the Leupold) the reticle still functions without illumination.
5. And.... all up, including an ARD, it weighs 3 oz. less than the Leupold with its mount.

Again, I am not insisting that the ACOG is a better choice, but it does provide everything that the Mk4 CQ/T does, with somewhat different benefits. If it has any downsides compared to the Leupold, it would be these:

1. The tritium will eventually go down. Trijicon warranties the tritium in fiberoptic ACOGs for 15 years. The cost of replacement is apparently a closely guarded secret, but just searching google returns hits on places like AR15.com quoting numbers in the $250-$300 range if the scope is still under warranty but the tritium's warranty has expired. If the scope is no longer under the original limited lifetime warranty for the original owner, for something like $550 they will replace ALL of the scope's internals including the tritium element. If it is still under warranty, or within the 15 year warranty on the tritium element, they will replace all of that stuff for free, and their customer service is highly regarded.......but the tritium doesn't last forever.
2. The Leupold has very slightly better eye-relief..... 2.80 in at 1x, and 2.00 in at 3x, compared to the ACOG's paltry 1.5 in (which is why, in my opinion, the ACOG is not really appropriate for harder kicking rifles like .308s).
3. The Leupold is selling in the real world for about $200 less, (but both scopes are still above $1,000). Those are SWFA prices, and gunshow or Optics Planet prices may vary.

I really like the simple, lightweight T2 Micro, but it has limitations. I suppose I could buy a matching magnifier/mount combo for it, but then I'm kind of back to where I was with my ancient EOTech, and the same issues of weight and less than perfect optics I had before.