Question regarding instructor 'style'

[DoubleActionCHL]

Recently, I received an email from a lady who had taken a CHL class from another instructor. She indicated that she, and others in the class, were put off by his foul language. The lady was also unhappy because, as she put it, he spent too much time pontificating about his personal and political views and did not expound on the law and there application as much as she would have liked. She felt he left many questions unanswered.

Now, I realize that this is all very subjective, and that she could simply be a one of those people who is impossible to please. It is also the student's responsibility to ask questions and seek answers. However, this brings up a question:

Do you feel that profanity is part of the 'real world' and, therefore, is perfectly fine in a CHL class?

Do you discuss political views in your classes?

My opinion:
I'm not a police officer and I've never been one. My experience has been in the computer industry, where, for the past 25 years, I've put on seminars, training classes, presentations before boards of directors, etc. I believe that, as an instructor, it is my job to be professional. Being professional, to me, means using language that would not be considered offensive to anyone in my audience. I think, even when speaking of handguns, use of force and real world situations, we can get our point across without using profanity.

Regarding the political views, I have no problem with this... to an extent. My class includes a discussion on the 2nd Amendment, my interpretation, our right to carry, the history of concealed carry in Texas, and the importance of getting involved in the political process to protect these rights. That's about it, though, and it takes less than 10 minutes.

I'd like your opinions.

[lrb111]

I'm in pretty much the same camp as you. Profanity serves no purpose, and is a waste of time.
In a class setting, I'm one issue on politics, and that is second amendment support. No matter the party.

[longtooth]

I know that class can be taught with all firmness & never use profanity.
The instructer that I go to is excellent. He does use an occasional (what I call light profanity).
THere is no need for it.

[57Coastie]

I'll bite.

As a legal matter, a CHL instructor is authorized by the State of Texas to conduct a course of instruction for the state which is required to be successfully and satisfactorily completed by an applicant for a CHL. The applicant has no choice but to take the course somewhere, and the instructor's certification by the state should assure a prospective student that the course will be taught correctly. The instructor is authorized by the State of Texas to charge a fee of the applicant to receive the state-sponsored course. In my opinion the instructor has clearly crossed the line when he steps into the area of political proselytizing when he is acting as the agent of the state government. An agent of the state government is way out of line when he preaches politics, as would be a teacher in your child's classroom should he or she preach politics.

As a practical matter the state requires him to present a prescribed course of instruction during a defined period of time. If the instructor has the time to talk politics then he is presumptively failing to fill the time period with the prescribed material. If the instructor wishes to engage in a political discussion with his students then it should be done informally during a break and explicitly cautioned as being just personal opinion. The God-like status of this instructor to the uninitiated should never permit his political preaching to possibly be considered by his students to be a part of his instruction -- this is the worst extreme, but it is possible, if not likely. As one specific example, I am unaware of current hot Second Amendment issues being an appropriate subject for a CHL course. Should an instructor, as a worst case example, imply during the presentation of his course that the Second Amendment means, by its clear terms, that members of his class are permitted by the Constitution to keep and bear arms of any kind, anywhere, at any time, he may get someone killed or jailed.

As far as this instructor's use of obscenity is concerned, and I note from the terms of the question that there was at least one lady present, he demonstrates rudity, crudity, and a lack of respect for his students -- male as well as female. He has no business being an agent of the state government.

He should be reported to the DPS with a view toward having his certification lifted.

Jim

[DoubleActionCHL]

The instructor is authorized by the State of Texas to charge a fee of the applicant to receive the state-sponsored course. In my opinion the instructor has clearly crossed the line when he steps into the area of political proselytizing when he is acting as the agent of the state government. An agent of the state government is way out of line when he preaches politics, as would be a teacher in your child's classroom should he or she preach politics.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't believe your analogy between a CHL instructor and a public school teacher is accurate. A public school teacher is clearly an employee of the government. We, on the other hand, are more akin to a licensed contractor; licensed to perform a function or service and bound to adhere to a set of government guidelines or codes.

I also believe in making students aware that their privilege of obtaining their CHL is dependent upon their right to keep and bear arms as enumerated by the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America. I believe it is important to inform them of the fragility of this right and urge them to get involved in the political process. I don't believe that it is appropriate to suggest HOW they should vote or what positions they should take. I believe, for most of them, that's understood based on their presence in my class.

I'm sure there is a fine line (and a subjective one) between what I believe is a 'if you cherish this right, you should get involved" and preaching a particular political line. I could be wrong, but then, that's why I invited this discussion.

[drw]

I'm sending my wife to L&L in Tyler for her CHL next month, and I will be quite unhappy if I learn that the instructor uses excessive foul language in her presence. I'm trusting them to be professional and courteous.

[57Coastie]

I could be wrong, but then, that's why I invited this discussion.

With commentators having your attitude, DoubleAction, this forum will continue to be a constructive asset to those who share a common interest, while sometimes differing a bit on the slant. I, too, could be wrong, and I accept that. Meanwhile a constructive dialogue on matters such as you had the courage to raise is so healthy. Any true differences you and I might have could well be just a matter of degree.

Jim

[TraCoun]

I have been a certified NRA Instructor for about 10 years and a Training Counselor for about 7. In addition I've taught at 2 different colleges and have been an industrial trainer for 17 years.

IMHO, the instructor who blatantly uses profanity with no regard for the feelings of others is wrong. It is just simply wrong from a moral and ethical standpoint. Such an instructor is also showing great disrespect toward the students.

Looking from a purely practical standpoint, an instructor should not want to do anything that hinders the students' concentration on the subject. Using profanity as has been described, and from the reactions given, is definitely doing this. People are spending time thinking about the profanity and not listening to the course material.

I don't know if anything can be done about this through DPS, others might be able to answer that. You might want to contact the instructor and explain your outlook, and let that instructor know why you will never again attend one of his classes. There are lots of CHL instructors to chose from. I have been through the class several times and have never had one use any profanity.

Thanx,
TraCoun

[WildBill]

I doubt that DPS can or will or should do anything about the profanity or political opinions given by CHL instructors. As long as they cover the contents of the class as required by law that is all that is required. In my experience most instructors give their opinions to a certain extent. As long as they are given as opinions rather than gospel, I have no problem with that. Of course taking excessive classroom time with political rants is not acceptable.

I think that the problem will be self-correcting if people follow TraCoun's advice. If the instructor fails to take corrective action based on student feedback, word will get around and many people will refuse to take classes from this individual.

[DoubleActionCHL]

I could be wrong, but then, that's why I invited this discussion.

With commentators having your attitude, DoubleAction, this forum will continue to be a constructive asset to those who share a common interest, while sometimes differing a bit on the slant. I, too, could be wrong, and I accept that. Meanwhile a constructive dialogue on matters such as you had the courage to raise is so healthy. Any true differences you and I might have could well be just a matter of degree.

Jim

Thanks. I've noticed that the majority of posters on this board are generally able to engage in debates behave as adults. We've got a good group here.

I'm comfortable with the way I teach my class and have had no complaints (that I know of), so I'll keep doing what I'm doing.

By the way, I'm not looking to get anyone in trouble or anything. I simply wanted to get a cross-section of how other instructors conduct themselves in the classroom so I can compare it to my own class. No offense to to police officers, but I've had several CHL renewals who've taken classes in the past from instructors who are law enforcement and were put off by the gruff style and 'street' language. I know from my own experience that the officer who taught me would discuss 'what if' scenarios from a police officer point of view and then say, "but you can't do that." I didn't find that terribly helpful. And to be fair, I've heard far more positive recollections of instructors, both LEO and otherwise.

[Liberty]

It takes a lot of profanity to offend me, but in the spirit of professionalism there is very little use for it in the classroom. As far as politics go, I expect my instructor to be an enthusiastic supporter of the CHL program and my right to bear arms.

[Reborn]

I don't use nor will I put up with my staff using profanity. I also will not tolerate it from my students, either. Courtesy works in both directions.

[KaiserB]

A few things come to mind for this situation.

First, I would discount whatever was said as profanity is a sign of lacking vocabulary (inferred lack of intelligence).

Further there have been a few things written in the past about profanity, some good advice:
Proverbs 29:20: Do you see a man hasty in his words? There is more hope of a fool than for him.
Ecclesiastes 5:2: Do not be rash with your mouth, and let not your heart utter anything hastily before God. For God is in heaven, and you on the earth; therefore let your words be few.

[Captain Matt]

His class. His rules.

As long as he teaches the required subjects it's his choice if he wants to use four letter words or four syllable words. If a student doesn't like a teacher's style they can take the class from someone else.

[DoubleJ]

may be, but it's kinda hard after you've already paid, and you're already there...