Penal Code 46.15 Nonapplicability

[Neverpanic1]

Any more insight into this already confusing code ?
I've had some people tell me they're reading "knife length has no minimum on carry blade length for CHL holders" into this.......

[jbarn]

You are referring to 46.15(b) that states penal code section 46.02 does not apply to a person who is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun

Since 46.02 proscribes the carry of handguns, illegal knives and clubs, if a person meets that section of 46.15(b) then the law allows the carry of handguns, illegal knives and clubs.

I have seen a debate on nearly every gun forum about this law. Some argue it only makes the part in 46.02 about handguns not apply. Others argue it makes all of 46.02 not apply, meaning a person who is carrying his concealed handgun and license can also carry an illegal knife or club.

A literal reading shows that the second argument is correct. And if you think about it, if the state lets me to carry a handgun, a weapon that can deliver lethal force at far distances, why would I not be allowed to carry one that can only be lethal at arms length?

I know one man who decided to put the argument to the test. He carried into the state Capitol his concealed handgun. He also carried a knife in a scabbord in plain view. The knfe had a blade longer than 5 and a quarter inches. He was not given a second look as he showed his CHL to enter. Once inside for a while he was approached by a DPS trooper about the knife. Short story is he showed the law and made his argument. Several troopers were called over to discuss. Finally a suoervisor was called over. The man was arrestee and booked for UCW, a violation of 46.02 for carrying an illegal knife.

He met with the DA after posting bail. The DA dropped the charges in writing. While the form used to drop the case did not state that carrying an illegal knife while carrying a CHL and concealed handgun was notma violation, the DA said it to him, the man reported.

Personally I think the law allows it. Look at the structure of the code. Further in 46.15 there is a section that states "The provision of Section 46.02 prohibiting the carrying of a club does not apply to a noncommissioned security guard .............."

Had the legislators wanted to prevent a CHL holder from carry illegal knive or clubs, 46.15(b) (6) could have read "- the provision of Section 46.02 prohibiting the carry of handguns does not apply to a person carrying a concealed handgun and a valid license........."

They didn't do that. The wording makes 46.02, all of it, non applicable to a person with a license and concealed handgun.

All of that said, I dont carry illegal knives or clubs. I advise my students of all of the above and tell them that ultimately, the decision is theirs......

[Neverpanic1]

Thank you, Jbarn !!!

[EEllis]

Personally I think it was an unintended consequence of the language used. That the lawmakers didn't intend to make it legal to carry anything other than a concealed firearm but the way it reads on it's face it does. That is absolutely no protection against arrest or prosecution never mind conviction. All it takes is a judge who decides based on what he thinks the legislature meant instead of what they wrote and you would be convicted. Mind you it shouldn't matter what they "meant", their intent, if the language is clear, but judges have done so before and it has held up in some cases so.........

[V-Tach]

He also had legal bills.....it wasn't an inexpensive endeavor....

[CoolBreeze]

He also had legal bills.....it wasn't an inexpensive endeavor....

Welcome to the forum.

[TexasGal]

I would also wonder how much more complicated your defense would get if you used one of those in a deadly force encounter.

[EEllis]

I would also wonder how much more complicated your defense would get if you used one of those in a deadly force encounter.

Outside of Austin or SA I think it might not be much of an issue. The thing about Texas is it's always been a "Officers Discretion" kind of State. Basicly we had all these laws against weapons but they were normally only enforced against certain kinds of people. Mainly black but it also included poor or those with a history. So if you were a upstanding citizen you wouldn't normally get charged with any weapons violations. Using an illegal knife would really only be an issue if there was some feeling that the use was questionable.

[nightmare]

Welcome to the forum.

You realize he joined six months before you, right?

[V-Tach]

I tend to read more than post...

Thank you for the welcome...

[Ânthony]

Any more insight into this already confusing code ?
I've had some people tell me they're reading "knife length has no minimum on carry blade length for CHL holders" into this.......

There's no minimum blade length for anybody in Texas except maybe in San Antonio.

[CoffeeNut]

Any more insight into this already confusing code ?
I've had some people tell me they're reading "knife length has no minimum on carry blade length for CHL holders" into this.......

There's no minimum blade length for anybody in Texas except maybe in San Antonio.

San Antonio has some fishy knife ordinances that even make me a wee bit concerned about my Kershaw folder. I tend to follow the train of thought that if I can carry a gun I should be allowed to carry a knife.

[screaminz2002]

San Antonio and the lock blade law was exactly what I was going to ask. I had thought I was fine carrying a lock blade with a ccw? This is one law we need to get off the books here. I would sure hate to fall into a circumstance over something so trivial.

[kg5ie]

You are referring to 46.15(b) that states penal code section 46.02 does not apply to a person who is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun

Since 46.02 proscribes the carry of handguns, illegal knives and clubs, if a person meets that section of 46.15(b) then the law allows the carry of handguns, illegal knives and clubs.

I have seen a debate on nearly every gun forum about this law. Some argue it only makes the part in 46.02 about handguns not apply. Others argue it makes all of 46.02 not apply, meaning a person who is carrying his concealed handgun and license can also carry an illegal knife or club.

A literal reading shows that the second argument is correct. And if you think about it, if the state lets me to carry a handgun, a weapon that can deliver lethal force at far distances, why would I not be allowed to carry one that can only be lethal at arms length?

I know one man who decided to put the argument to the test. He carried into the state Capitol his concealed handgun. He also carried a knife in a scabbord in plain view. The knfe had a blade longer than 5 and a quarter inches. He was not given a second look as he showed his CHL to enter. Once inside for a while he was approached by a DPS trooper about the knife. Short story is he showed the law and made his argument. Several troopers were called over to discuss. Finally a suoervisor was called over. The man was arrestee and booked for UCW, a violation of 46.02 for carrying an illegal knife.

He met with the DA after posting bail. The DA dropped the charges in writing. While the form used to drop the case did not state that carrying an illegal knife while carrying a CHL and concealed handgun was notma violation, the DA said it to him, the man reported.

Personally I think the law allows it. Look at the structure of the code. Further in 46.15 there is a section that states "The provision of Section 46.02 prohibiting the carrying of a club does not apply to a noncommissioned security guard .............."

Had the legislators wanted to prevent a CHL holder from carry illegal knive or clubs, 46.15(b) (6) could have read "- the provision of Section 46.02 prohibiting the carry of handguns does not apply to a person carrying a concealed handgun and a valid license........."

They didn't do that. The wording makes 46.02, all of it, non applicable to a person with a license and concealed handgun.

All of that said, I dont carry illegal knives or clubs. I advise my students of all of the above and tell them that ultimately, the decision is theirs......

I agree with your interpretation of the wording using a literal reading, and I also agree that what we have is "unintentional consequences" of a poorly worded law. In addition, if indeed 46.02 does not apply, one can argue that "a-1" is out and that a CHL owner can lay their weapon on the dash or seat "in plain view". Agreed?

Love legal debates of poorly worded laws!

[hillfighter]

I agree with your interpretation of the wording using a literal reading, and I also agree that what we have is "unintentional consequences" of a poorly worded law. In addition, if indeed 46.02 does not apply, one can argue that "a-1" is out and that a CHL owner can lay their weapon on the dash or seat "in plain view". Agreed?

You absolutely can do that when you're hunting etc. But you're not covered by MPA if it's in plain view and you're violating 46.035 by intentionally displaying it in a public place while carrying under the authority of your CHL.