Strange Students

[Crossfire]

Have any of you guys ever had a student that you tossed out of a class? That is, other than one that obviously was not going to get a license because he did not meet the eligibility requirements?

Or, have you ever had a student that passed the written and proficiency exams but you just didn't pass him anyway?

I don't know whether I am getting more paranoid in my old age or whether the spring weather has just brought out the crazies, but I have had one guy in each of my last two classes that just creeped me out SO much that I just didn't feel good about signing the TR-100.

One guy pretty much slept through the class, but still passed the exam. And the other... well, I think he is just a so-far undiagnosed schizo . I mean, really, no matter how much I worked on this guy, he was convinced that a CHL is a license to shoot anybody and everybody without consequences.

How have you guys handled these situations?

[txinvestigator]

I run a little more relaxed class for CHL students than I do for Security, but I still insist on certain decorum. That includes no sleeping. If someone cannot stay awake I give 1 private warning. (done on break) The second warning is in front of the class, and 3 times I remove him from class.

If I don't feel they can safely handle the weapon I never let them finish the range qualification.

If they make it through the class and actually take and pass the written test, and actually complete the range portion and qualify, then I believe I am obligated to provide them a TR100.

I would write DPS a letter explaining any psychological issues I was worried about with a student.

[ElGato]

Tx and I are again like minded.

If we accept a student and they complete the class and pass both test's we should certify them, we are not allowed to fail them for any other reason.
I was told in 1997 that a written comment from the instructor would be considered in a case like you described.

Tom

[stevie_d_64]

I've personally been through various classes and courses that were as boring as watching a car rust...

Including a couple of the CHL classes I have been to...But...

As much as you (instructors) want to keep the classes as entertaining and interactive as you can...The burden should not be on you, for the way the "students" come into your class and conduct themselves...

Obviously safety is paramount, and if a student is deficient in the understanding of the rules for whatever reason, that should be a way to refund the money and tell them to either come back another day, or seek another instructor...To me, a students' action in a class of this type dictate a seriousness of purpose, yet be mature enough to practice good judgement and participate correctly in it...

It doesn't have to be as boring as a DPS defensive drivers class...

Thats why I support all of the subjects in the currect curriculum the state requires in the class...

The range qual should never be excused or waivered for renewals, I think an experienced shooter lends a tremendous asset to a class, and that shooters who may not be comfortable do receive a lot of encouragement and desire to get to a range more often to get better, and more important learn to become more safe with firearms in general...

The learning of the firearms law in this state, which may be boring to some, does remind us of that important part of all the can and cannot's of what that little piece of plastic says about you...

And above all, I think the non-violent conflict resolution portion of the class, however campy and silly some of it can be, really puts a face on what kind of person you are and can be, if you understand the underlying purpose of it...

Those students that fall asleep during some of that NVCR stuff need to be engaged in the class as far as getting them to participate in some sort of role playing during that portion of the class, if nothing more than to get them to understand that in the bigger picture of things that this is not a game...

Its a fine balance, and one I do not envy those who have gone and qualified and teach the rest of us the states' requirement to get this certification...

I've been giving it a lot of thought lately about becoming an instructor...So at the very least I can have a better and more complete understanding of the law...

[txinvestigator]

Obviously safety is paramount, and if a student is deficient in the understanding of the rules for whatever reason, that should be a way to refund the money and tell them to either come back another day, or seek another instructor...To me, a students' action in a class of this type dictate a seriousness of purpose, yet be mature enough to practice good judgement and participate correctly in it...

I refund only if the student tells me after the first segment that he is ineligible. I cover this section in the first hour. After that I pretty much do not refund.

The range qual should never be excused or waivered for renewals

I am not sure why you wrote that. Are you suggesting that some renewals are not being required to shoot? Every renewal student is required by law to qualify on the range to receive a TR100 to renew. If you know of an instructor not doing this you should report it to DPS,

Those students that fall asleep during some of that NVCR stuff need to be engaged in the class as far as getting them to participate in some sort of role playing during that portion of the class,

I think as instructors we should handle sleeping students as we see fit.

[Crossfire]

I refund only if the student tells me after the first segment that he is ineligible. I cover this section in the first hour. After that I pretty much do not refund.

Yep, same here. We cover eligibility requirements first. Then I have them initial and sign the eligibility affidavit, reminding them that, once they sign, this is a legal document. (That usually gets their attention) This is also where I schedule the first break. That gives them a chance to make a graceful exit, if needed.

I usually have at least one that never makes it back from the break. Sometimes they ask for a refund - sometimes they just vanish. But, no refunds are offered past the first break except in VERY unusual circumstances.

[jimlongley]

We had a student sit through more than half the day, when my wife and I took the course, even after lunch, and then he realized he wasn't eligible and left.

We had been told, several times, what the eligibility criteria were, and he waited until we actually got down to filling out the paperwork before he stepped aside for a little private conflab with the instructor, and then he was gone. The instructor was peeved, and told us that the guy was ineligible but not why.

He looked seedy from the start, like a wino, with a couple of what I would consider prison tattoos, and he asked several questions that sounded like the old "I have a friend who was convicted . . ."

My private opinion is that he was going to try to get it through until he saw the depth the paperwork went to. He may have thought he could get away with it.

[nitrogen]

How do you CHL Instructors feel about "cowboys"?
When I took my class, there were 2 of them. Whenever the instructor spoke about anything, or asked for any class input on what-if situations, these 2 jokers would always respond that they'd shoot somebody, even in the obviously inapropriate situations like a traffic stop.

My instructor seemed to laugh it off, then "correct them" but it made me wonder if these guys were really going off with their CHL to shoot people they didn't like. I definately got a negative "Vibe" from 'em.

[HighVelocity]

I too had a couple of oddballs in my class. Their constant comments on everything from why a 9mm is for girls to carrying swords were very annoying.

[txinvestigator]

How do you CHL Instructors feel about "cowboys"?
When I took my class, there were 2 of them. Whenever the instructor spoke about anything, or asked for any class input on what-if situations, these 2 jokers would always respond that they'd shoot somebody, even in the obviously inapropriate situations like a traffic stop.

My instructor seemed to laugh it off, then "correct them" but it made me wonder if these guys were really going off with their CHL to shoot people they didn't like. I definately got a negative "Vibe" from 'em.

I laugh at their first comments, and correct them. After that I tell them that I don't take the rights or responsibilities of carrying and using deadly force as anything funny. I do so pretty harshly. It usually gets them to shut up.

[stevie_d_64]

I refund only if the student tells me after the first segment that he is ineligible. I cover this section in the first hour. After that I pretty much do not refund.

Oh thats fine, I was coming from the point that anytime it doesn't look like its going to work out for them I'd refund...To a certain point like you said...Business models differ, and I would take a look at yours or another instructors class and apply what I think would work for my deal...

The range qual should never be excused or waivered for renewals

I am not sure why you wrote that. Are you suggesting that some renewals are not being required to shoot? Every renewal student is required by law to qualify on the range to receive a TR100 to renew. If you know of an instructor not doing this you should report it to DPS,[/quote]

Sorry, there had been some discussion about the time and class content for renewals...It was all speculative and ideas were thrown out there for general discussion to make the range time an option for renewals...I was not for that obviously...I didn't mean to make it sound like there was something like that in the works...

Those students that fall asleep during some of that NVCR stuff need to be engaged in the class as far as getting them to participate in some sort of role playing during that portion of the class,

I think as instructors we should handle sleeping students as we see fit.[/quote]

You bet...It just escapes me that anyone would not be mentally and physically prepared and rested enough to focus and effectively participate in the class you conduct...

Call me an ole fuddy-duddy if I take it seriously, but at the same time keep a good attitude, and spread a little exhuberance to the others in the class...

[mec]

I assisted another instructor with a large class back at the beginning the program. We had a guy who was acting strange and bragging about getting in a fist fight with a dps officer. "Next time, I'll have a gun!" So, the primary instructor filed a letter with DPS and was later informed that they had looked at the guy closely but couldn't find any deniable cause.

One of DPS rules for instructor classes is that you have to be able to stay awake. I've never witnessed what they do if somebody nods off.

.

[Crossfire]

I too had a couple of oddballs in my class. Their constant comments on everything from why a 9mm is for girls to carrying swords were very annoying.

Yeah, every class has to have at least one class clown. I try to keep my classes as light as possible (makes it a bit more interesting) but only to a point. Once they start to get annoying, I tell them at the next break to knock it off. If they don't settle down, then I bust them in front of the class.

But that type is easily handled. I originally started this thread because I actually had a student that I have had nightmares about. This guy would not listen, could not follow even the simplest instructions, and only passed the proficiency after his 3rd try, one on one. Not because he couldn't shoot, just because he wouldn't LISTEN! And then, when we got to "use of force" scenarios, he was all about "shoot them, shoot them all, and then shoot all the witnesses".

Yeah... just the kind of guy we need licensed to carry a concealed handgun.

[ThunderDownUnder]

Let’s see……Students….
Have I ever tossed anyone? Not really. I have had a few “ineligibles� that left at the first break.
Way back in the Fall of 1995 , I had about 16 students and the one sitting closest to me was very nervous. We were about to finish the first hour and take the old 10 question Pre-Test ( remember that ?).
This guy was nervous from the start . By the time the pre-test rolled around he was vibrating the whole room. Tapping feet, shaking hands, looking over his shoulder, etc. As I handed out the pre-test , he got up, asked to get his handgun out of the vault, and took off. The whole class was relieved and had noticed him.
My buddy with the PD who was doing the prints at the time ran his info and it turned out he was a felon.
One of the first things that I have always done is go over the Eligibility Affadavit at the beginning of class.

I had one lady that fingered a fellow student. I had a guy bragging about killing all the neighbor’s cats at a break. A lady cat lover overheard him and was shocked. I explained to her that some folks really don’t like cats…not that it’s an excuse. She asked me if she could write a letter to the State and complain about him and rat him out. I laughed and told I could not stop her. She got a Harris County Deputy to run his plate and she talked him into giving up his name and address. She also reported him to his county’s SO and she kept him from getting a license. The moral of the story: I have had 5 students out of many thousands get into trouble. They all got in trouble after running their mouths.

Another lady in early 1996, walked in for a three weeknight class with her lawyer. She told me she wanted to take the class and that she was told she was ineligible and wanted to fight the guidelines. I laughed and asked , "so what's your problem ?" She said , " I am of unsound mind!".
Which was one of the items on the Eligibility Affadavit at the time. I told her , "Oh great!" and laughed. We started class. Don't know why the lawyer had to escort her though. Her husband was a Fortune 40 SrVP and she and her kids took meds for ADD and that would DQ her with the State. She challenged it. She got her license and you will note the the "unsound mind " line went away and in its place we got the " I am not incapable of exercising sound judgement with respect to.....blah, blah."

And of course, my mouthiest and most smartassed student ever was a Justice of the Peace.

I had one guy who was a felon (sawed off shotgun- he thought it was okay if you kept it in your house) who paid to sit through the class (less the shooting ) just to learn about Texas Ch. 9 and Ch. 46. Nice guy, it’s turns out.

If I start to get too many war stories or smartass comments, I tell them to hold their questions until just before the next break. If people persist, I let them know they are slowing down things for the entire class so please be more considerate. That usually works and the rest of the class appreciates the effort. And usually fate intervenes when students boast of their shooting prowess. They usually feel the pressure and shoot a below class average score.

Nowadays, we do more “pre-screening� via talking to them over the phone when they register. That gets a lot of the nonsense out of the way before class. Also, there are some group dynamics that come into play.
Some folks will cut up in a class of 6-8 folks and they won’t in front of a group of 20 . And I have found that most students are more attentive in a class of 15-20 than a small class of 4-8. They seem to get a little more energy being in the bigger group.
J

[mec]

"If I start to get too many war stories or smartass comments, I tell them to hold their questions until just before the next break. If people persist, I let them know they are slowing down things for the entire class so ..."

this is an issue in the dps instructor classes. Most of the presenters handle it very well but one of the administrative staff was nasty enough about it to get unfavorable evaluation comments from the class. this person was more authoritarian and less diplomatic than the sworn officers who know when to turn on the "command presence" and when to stay in the "adult to adult" mode.