Not exactly a CHL contact

[packina45]

OK, here's an interesting one. Would be interested in hearing comments, especially from LEOs.

I'm a field supervisor with a small security firm in the DFW metroplex.

Last night, one of my commissioned officers, in uniform and on patrol, driving a marked patrol vehicle, stopped for gas. As he was filling his tank, he was approached by a Fort Worth police officer who threatened to arrest him for UCW (unlawful carrying of weapon) unless he removed his duty belt while he fueled the car. Not just the sidearm, but the entire duty belt, because my officer was also carrying an ASP baton and OC spray, both of which he is certified for and qualified to carry.

The LEO's rationale was "you are only allowed to carry a weapon if you are on a contracted client's site".

State Private Security Board rules state that a commissioned security officer may carry a weapon "in the performance of his duties", and while traveling to or from work, but this doesn't seem to be covered. My officer was enroute from one client site to another, and stopped to fuel his company, marked patrol vehicle with a company credit card.

Seems to me that fueling his company patrol vehicle would be "in the performance of his duties" but apparently the Fort Worth Police Department feels differently.

[KRM45]

OK, here's an interesting one. Would be interested in hearing comments, especially from LEOs.

I'm a field supervisor with a small security firm in the DFW metroplex.

Last night, one of my commissioned officers, in uniform and on patrol, driving a marked patrol vehicle, stopped for gas. As he was filling his tank, he was approached by a Fort Worth police officer who threatened to arrest him for UCW (unlawful carrying of weapon) unless he removed his duty belt while he fueled the car. Not just the sidearm, but the entire duty belt, because my officer was also carrying an ASP baton and OC spray, both of which he is certified for and qualified to carry.

The LEO's rationale was "you are only allowed to carry a weapon if you are on a contracted client's site".

State Private Security Board rules state that a commissioned security officer may carry a weapon "in the performance of his duties", and while traveling to or from work, but this doesn't seem to be covered. My officer was enroute from one client site to another, and stopped to fuel his company, marked patrol vehicle with a company credit card.

Seems to me that fueling his company patrol vehicle would be "in the performance of his duties" but apparently the Fort Worth Police Department feels differently.

If I remember correctly, the part I underlined above was an update to the law from the 2009 legislative session. It could be a case of the officer not being aware of the change.

Something sound fishy about the whole thing though. Almost like some part of the story is missing... He never asked for ID, or called in to verify the security officer was actually on patrol?

[packina45]

If I remember correctly, the part I underlined above was an update to the law from the 2009 legislative session. It could be a case of the officer not being aware of the change.

Something sound fishy about the whole thing though. Almost like some part of the story is missing... He never asked for ID, or called in to verify the security officer was actually on patrol?

The LEO asked my officer for ID, including his "pocket card" from the PSB showing his commissioned officer status. He then proceeded to berate my officer for carrying a weapon when not on a contracted client's site.

[KRM45]

If I remember correctly, the part I underlined above was an update to the law from the 2009 legislative session. It could be a case of the officer not being aware of the change.

Something sound fishy about the whole thing though. Almost like some part of the story is missing... He never asked for ID, or called in to verify the security officer was actually on patrol?

The LEO asked my officer for ID, including his "pocket card" from the PSB showing his commissioned officer status. He then proceeded to berate my officer for carrying a weapon when not on a contracted client's site.

Ok... I would say he was not familiar with the law then. Perhaps a letter to his supervisor would be appropriate.

[packina45]

I've instructed my officers to, until further notice, disarm if they are outside of their company vehicle unless on client property while in Fort Worth. Seems a little over-restrictive, but I won't risk having one them arrested for doing their job.

[OldCurlyWolf]

I've instructed my officers to, until further notice, disarm if they are outside of their company vehicle unless on client property while in Fort Worth. Seems a little over-restrictive, but I won't risk having one them arrested for doing their job.

I was taught over 30 years ago that a commissioned armed security officer could carry "To and From" and while on duty, but that they had to disarm for any stops in the "To and From", including buying gas or coffee or anything else.

[Keith B]

Did your officer get the LEO's name or information? I would suggest a friendly call to the Fort Worth PD and speak with their Public Information Officer, advise him of the encounter. I would let him know what that the statue states and that the CSO was on the job, just en-route to another location. Ask him to provide an official department stance on this and that way you will at least know if their interpretation is the same as the officer's or not.

Doing this in a manner that is friendly and polite will many times get you a good contact person and allow you to have a nice relationship with the PIO and a resource if you ever need to deal with them again on any future issues.

[speedsix]

...I worked for Wackenhut in 96...we were clearly taught that the law permitted us to be armed only in full uniform and only directly to and from work...NO stops for donuts or a haircut...like the law says...but this man was working and not just going to work...he was performing his duties...and the officer was being........well, we'll go with Keith B's post...he's a nice guy...and I'm ...not so much...

[mkosmo]

I was taught over 30 years ago that a commissioned armed security officer could carry "To and From" and while on duty, but that they had to disarm for any stops in the "To and From", including buying gas or coffee or anything else.

...I worked for Wackenhut in 96...we were clearly taught that the law permitted us to be armed only in full uniform and only directly to and from work...NO stops for donuts or a haircut...like the law says...but this man was working and not just going to work...he was performing his duties...and the officer was being........well, we'll go with Keith B's post...he's a nice guy...and I'm ...not so much...

The law changed in 2009 to permit security officers to carry their weapons during such stops.

[speedsix]

...Good...then I wouldn't put my men in danger by having one more unarmed uniform out there...the thugs shoot at the uniform before they notice if there's a gun or not...I would never be in uniform without one again...

[Rex B]

I rented my house to a security guard a couple years ago. They trashed the house, and moved out within 90 days, leaving a few odds and ends in the house. I stopped by after work and he was there in full uniform, armed, frantically filling his minivan with the stuff they had left. I ordered them to leave immediately, and thankfully they did.
At the time I didn't know he was carrying illegally. I was carrying concealed.

[packina45]

...Good...then I wouldn't put my men in danger by having one more unarmed uniform out there...the thugs shoot at the uniform before they notice if there's a gun or not...I would never be in uniform without one again...

I'm with ya on that. I won't pin on the tin without strapping on the iron.

[Excaliber]

The law was clarified on going to and from work, but whether open carry in uniform is OK on stops like getting gas, coffee, using a convenience store restroom, etc. was not specifically addressed and is therefore open to interpretation by law enforcement agencies and local district attorneys.

It appears to me the intent of the law was to allow open uniformed carry during travel and reasonable stops on the way to and from work, and from one client site to another. However, since the law change didn't speak to this directly, the reality is that different agencies are free to interpret it differently and local determinations backed up by the local DA currently vary from place to place and can ruin your whole day if you run afoul of local practice in a locale with a strict read of the law.

Yes, I know it's not supposed to be like this, and the law is supposed to be clear and evenly enforced throughout the state, but that's simply not the case in this area at this time. A bit more refinement needs to be done with the wording during the next legislative session.

Until then, unless one is certain of what the local practice is, it would make sense to take the most conservative approach to avoid becoming a test case and watch what happens with others who may take a more adventurous approach.

I am not a lawyer, and this opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it.

[papajohn1964]

I took my Level 4 Class in March. We were told that the new law allowed reasonable stops to and from work. You can stop for that cup of coffee and donut if you want. My instrutor explained that the law was changed because of a lot of MWAG calls and a lot of accidental discharges when guards were dis-arming to go into the store. If you are in uniform your CHL is null and void, if you are not on duty or enroute to or from work then your Commisioned Guard card is null and void. If you have to make a stop that is not in the direct rout of to or from your job you have to remove the uniform shirt put on another shirt and then CC during your stop. This is how it was explained to me.

[Excaliber]

I took my Level 4 Class in March. We were told that the new law allowed reasonable stops to and from work. You can stop for that cup of coffee and donut if you want. My instrutor explained that the law was changed because of a lot of MWAG calls and a lot of accidental discharges when guards were dis-arming to go into the store. If you are in uniform your CHL is null and void, if you are not on duty or enroute to or from work then your Commisioned Guard card is null and void. If you have to make a stop that is not in the direct rout of to or from your job you have to remove the uniform shirt put on another shirt and then CC during your stop. This is how it was explained to me.

That's a pretty good explanation of how I understand it's supposed to work. I have personally spoken with officers from different agencies in the DFW area, and I can tell you for sure that the agency interpretations and practices regarding this issue are radically different in different municipalities. In some places, you'll be fine just like your instructor said. In others, you are guaranteed to take the ride.

If you decide to go with his concept, make those "reasonable stops" while visibly armed and in uniform, and have an encounter with an LEO from an agency that interprets the ambiguity in the law differently than the way your instructor looked at it, you will become the test case I spoke of below. After an arrest your PSB license will of course be suspended or revoked, and you will lose your ability to earn a living in that profession and will incur substantial legal bills while the situation is addressed in the courts, which will be in no hurry just because you're in a pickle.

If that happens, please let us know how it works out so we can learn from it without repeating the experience.