TexasCHLforum.com

My best friend was stopped a couple of days ago in Granbury. He DOES NOT have his CHL yet.

When the LEO approached the truck, windows down, dome light on, JB's left arm/hand was located on the open window with hand out the window, right hand on the steering wheel. LEO asked for proper ID and such.
At this time, JB informs LEO that he has a loaded shotgun located between the seats. The LEO became very upset and acted as if my friend was a hardened criminal (with tone of voice). Ordering him to get his hands up, get out and keep hands visible. Called back-up. Cuffed him. Then asked JB if there was other weapons. He then was able to inform the LEO that he also had his G-36 in the console.

He was put in the cruiser. The LEOs searched the truck, more than just looking for the 2 weapons they were informed about. (<<<<what is the legality of this?) The SN#s were checked and all come back clear. JBs DL come back clear and he was eventually released with both weapons.

I know most of the above actions are to be expected with exception to the attitude of the LEO.

What makes me very upset is the next statement made by the Granbury LEO.....
.....JB was told that it would be VERY wise of him and that he SHOULD keep the guns UNLOADED and keep the ammo AWAY from the guns.
My question is....." WHAT GOOD IS AN UNLOADED GUN??!!" Then it is nothing more than a very expensive rock.

Believe it or not.....not all LEO's agree with us Civilians exercising our rights (within the Law) and if their Chief is one of these type, then you can expect the same from all the Dept. Officers.

AEA wrote:Believe it or not.....not all LEO's agree with us Civilians exercising our rights (within the Law) and if their Chief is one of these type, then you can expect the same from all the Dept. Officers.

I do believe it. I have many LEO friends and some of them openly disagree with our right to carry w/wo CHL.

I believe that it time for them (anti-gun LEO) to think OUTSIDE of the box and realize a few things..... I have a gun but that does NOT make me a criminal nor does it mean that I want to shoot a cop......I cant have a LEO follow me 24/7......I DO have the right to PROTECT MYSELF.

Why was your friend stopped to begin with?

Ask your friend to call the police station and file an informal complaint. Since he had broken no laws, there was no reason to handcuff him or search the vehicle. It was legal (sort of) under the guise of a frisk. For a frisk to be legal, the office must have an articulable reason why this particular stop put him in fear of danger to his life or health. I could see him saying he was in danger because he was told there was a loaded shotgun in the car. I disagree with him, but I can see his point of view and the SCOTUS says this one is pretty much based on the point of view of the officer at the time.

I think an informal complaint would be in order just to help the officer and department learn that having weapons in cars is strictly legal now. I want to get this point across to help prevent the problem from re-occurring.

Also, you might mention to your friend that he is under no legal obligation to volunteer any information on firearms in the vehicle (unless he has a CHL of course). Doing so obviously scared this officer, who it appears would have been better of in his ignorance. If he had remained ignorant of the situation, your friend would have been on his way quicker and with less hassles.

He stopped for for going 34mph in a 30 mph zone.

The ONLY reason he informed the officer of the shotgun is because it was visible. However, the LEO hadnt noticed it yet.

I agree with the informal complaint. But JB may not do or say anything about it.

Target1911 wrote:
The ONLY reason he informed the officer of the shotgun is because it was visible. However, the LEO hadnt noticed it yet.

.

its amazing what they dont notice if you dont tell them.
some are real perceptive, others not so much.

Yeah I know......but personally I would rather tell them BEFORE they notice. Otherwise there is a GREAT chance that you will be lookin down the business end of the LEOs sidearm

srothstein wrote:Ask your friend to call the police station and file an informal complaint. Since he had broken no laws, there was no reason to handcuff him or search the vehicle. It was legal (sort of) under the guise of a frisk. For a frisk to be legal, the office must have an articulable reason why this particular stop put him in fear of danger to his life or health. I could see him saying he was in danger because he was told there was a loaded shotgun in the car. I disagree with him, but I can see his point of view and the SCOTUS says this one is pretty much based on the point of view of the officer at the time.

I think an informal complaint would be in order just to help the officer and department learn that having weapons in cars is strictly legal now. I want to get this point across to help prevent the problem from re-occurring.

Also, you might mention to your friend that he is under no legal obligation to volunteer any information on firearms in the vehicle (unless he has a CHL of course). Doing so obviously scared this officer, who it appears would have been better of in his ignorance. If he had remained ignorant of the situation, your friend would have been on his way quicker and with less hassles.

Steve,

I want to Thank You..again, for your participation here and the information that you freely share with us.

I know it has been invaluable to me. Many Citizens (myself included) are simply unaware of what the law allows (or doesn't allow) LEO to do during a stop. I doubt many of us ever have a reason to question the actions of an officer, but its always good when we understand a little bit about the process.

Too, the citizenry is more apt to think only about themselves during a stop. So, your perspective (and that of other LEO here) gives us great insight to how officers view the event. This exchange of information...and the resulting discussion of it, goes a long, long...way toward educating both sides, (which should be the same side).

I appreciate it...my friend!

Flint.

I wonder how much of this type of scenario boils down to perception too. There's a big difference between the two following statements:

"Officer, I just wanted to inform you out of courtesy that there is a loaded weapon in the car. Here is my identification/insurance. I apologize if I was speeding. I was not aware I was." (note the avoidance of using the word "gun" and saying it's in the car, not that you have direct possession of it. You do have possession, but it may not be perceived as much of a threat because you're not verbally saying YOU/I have a weapon.)

"I have a loaded gun." (sounds innocent in some situations, but very easily misinterpreted)

"Are you sure I can't just get a warning? By the way, I have a loaded shotgun in the car. " (could be innocent, but perceived as a threat.)

Scenarios like the one described always remind me of a stop i had a few years ago. I was speeding a bit and got pulled over. I had the engine off, wallet out and at the window. I had turned my head to say something to my wife about the time the officer walked up. He asked me for my insurance (already holding out my license in the same hand my wallet was in. When he asked for the insurance i reached in the wallet with my other hand and held it out to him. I turned back to say something to the officer and realized I was holding out a $50 bill in front of him, not my insurance. He did NOT look happy about it either.

The blood trained from my face and I apologized about 100 times and quickly got out my insurance. He had a bit of an attitude, but i can't say a blame him. Was an honest mistake on my part but made me look REALLY bad. lol

LedJedi wrote:.... realized I was holding out a $50 bill in front of him, not my insurance. He did NOT look happy about it either.

Of course he wasn't happy, it is supposed to be a C-note! (Just kidding!)

I really agree with most everyone that you should just show both out of courtesy. When I was a LEO, finding out surprises after running their info would always put me on guard as to what else they may not be telling me. I know it's the law, and you don't have to show it when not carrying, but it sure makes things flow a lot better on a stop if the fact that you are or are not carrying is out of the way up front.

In the stop I described, AS I described it, what are the LEGAL boundaries of the LEO.
or..........
Officer, out of courtesy I would like to inform you I have a loaded pistol between the seats near my right leg. It is under the towel. How would you like to handle this so there are no misunderstandings.

Can he legally search the entire vehicle, or is he only allowed to search for the weapon I informed him of?

LedJedi wrote:Scenarios like the one described always remind me of a stop i had a few years ago. I was speeding a bit and got pulled over. I had the engine off, wallet out and at the window. I had turned my head to say something to my wife about the time the officer walked up. He asked me for my insurance (already holding out my license in the same hand my wallet was in. When he asked for the insurance i reached in the wallet with my other hand and held it out to him. I turned back to say something to the officer and realized I was holding out a $50 bill in front of him, not my insurance. He did NOT look happy about it either.

The blood trained from my face and I apologized about 100 times and quickly got out my insurance. He had a bit of an attitude, but i can't say a blame him. Was an honest mistake on my part but made me look REALLY bad. lol

Thats hilarious.

I can relate to that because I did something similar when I was in College. I was still living in Austin at the time. I was going home from a night club one evening and was traveling along MoPac. I had a yellow '69 Jaguar XKE roadster...and sometimes I would manage to creep a little bit over the speed limit.

Apparently, I was speeding (just a bit) that night...because a few blocks from where I would turn off to go home, an officer fell in behind me and lit me up. Of course, I pulled over immediately and got my wallet out.

Because I had partaken of a few beers that night (2-3 really), I was a little worried that he would smell it on my breath. I wasn't anything like intoxicated....but I just didn't want the stop to turn into anything eventful.

To that end...I was trying to keep my head turned away a little (clever 22 yr. old that I was), and when he asked me for my drivers license I reached into my wallet and handed it to him (I thought).

There was silence for a few seconds, then more silence...then he leans down to my window opening and says " Sir....I have plenty of gas, what I need is your D_R_I_V_E_R_S.....license" he says real slow. At this point he hands me back my Exxon card.

I apologize profusely....tell him I am just going home for the night. Of course at this point...he asked the dreaded question: "Have you been drinking tonight"? I replied that I had...and that it was a couple of beers. He told me to go straight home...and to slow it down. I did exactly as he instructed... and felt very lucky that night. Talk about embarrassing!

That was 1976 and LEO were a bit more lax about folks drinking and driving, it probably wouldn't "fly" these days, but I quit drinking eons ago so it doesn't matter.

Anyway, the moral of the story is this: Look carefully at what it is you are handing the nice officer. It just might save you an embarrassing experience.

Target1911 wrote:In the stop I described, AS I described it, what are the LEGAL boundaries of the LEO.
or..........
Officer, out of courtesy I would like to inform you I have a loaded pistol between the seats near my right leg. It is under the towel. How would you like to handle this so there are no misunderstandings.

Can he legally search the entire vehicle, or is he only allowed to search for the weapon I informed him of?

The legal boundaries are in between what you posted. He can then frisk you and the area you had immediate access to. He could check under your seat for example, but he could not open a locked container. The glove box and console can be opened if they are latched but not locked, and the trunk would be off limits totally. While most officers would also look under the passengers seat, it is really stretching the law if there was only one person in the car.

But, that is also assuming he can articulate why he thought there was a threat from this specific stop. I think a court would agree if you had told him there was a weapon but I am not sure I would under the say you told him.


And thanks for the kind words Flintknapper. I always figured that my job was easier if everyone knew the base rules to start with. Since I think we should have nothing to hide along these lines, I like to let people know what the limits are and show them our point of view.

I keep my driver's license and CHL in the same place all the time. They are easy to get out and I don't have to fish around for them. I also don't keep them in one of those little "license holder" things since almost everyone who asks to see it, asks you to take it out. I also keep my insurance card in the pocket on my window visor so that I can flip it down and grab it. So I know where everything is, it's out quick and easy (CHL on top) and held with my arm fully extended when the cop gets to my door.