LEOs open carry?

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MBGuy
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Re: LEOs open carry?

#16

Post by MBGuy »

srothstein wrote:For example, a person who is traveling can carry either openly or concealed. The law just does not apply to them.

:shock:

Care to elaborate? I did some quick googling and apparently if you're travelling for an overnight stay you can open carry? That just doesn't sound right.....I like the idea, but it doesn't sound like a LEO will let you show him your luggage saying "See officer, I'm travelling for an overnight stay two counties over, I can open carry while I fill up my car's gas tank!". Maybe it's another one of those "it's legal, but I wouldn't try it" things, like open carrying while you're cutting grass on your property.....in the middle of Austin :evil2:, but it's the first I've heard of it.
Harry
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srothstein
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Re: LEOs open carry?

#17

Post by srothstein »

MBGuy wrote:
srothstein wrote:For example, a person who is traveling can carry either openly or concealed. The law just does not apply to them.

:shock:

Care to elaborate? I did some quick googling and apparently if you're travelling for an overnight stay you can open carry? That just doesn't sound right
Sure. If you read the Penal Code, Section 46.15 says that 46.02 does not apply to "a person who is traveling". Since 46.02 is the law saying it is illegal to carry and does not mention concealed or open, when it does not apply there is no requirement to conceal either.

Now, the problem is that there is no legal definition for traveling. To find out what a word means, you can look at the Code Construction Act (chapter 311 of the Government Code). There we are told that, basically, a word has its common meaning unless there is a technical meaning assigned somewhere by law. Since there is no definition of traveling in Texas codes, it has the common meaning. Now, to most of us, traveling means taking a trip that is not part of your usual activities (sucha s when i drove to Dallas this week). Some of us think it requires a certain distance or an overnight stay but there is really no general agreement. Ask any basketball player and they will say it means moving both feet while holding the ball.

So, we look to what the courts have said. There are a lot of cases with various definitions of traveling. Some require a distance, some require an overnight stay, some require crossing county lines, etc. Most of these come about by doing just the opposite of what we want. Instead of defining traveling, the court usually tells us what it is not.

And, the best answer was found in a Court of Criminal Appeals case from early in the 20th Century. They said that traveling is a fact to be decided by the jury at the time of trial. Using this as a guideline, courts will generally not touch the fact of whether or not you were traveling on an appeal. The jury decides the definition.

So, if you can convince the jury that what you were doing constituted traveling, you can carry your pistol openly. If the jury disagrees with you, then you were breaking the law.

But my point was that the law really does not give police officers that much of a special privilege. It does give them some, but it gives the same privilege to some others also. And, we need to fix the law so we can all carry Alaska style (with or without a permit as we decide).
Steve Rothstein

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Re: LEOs open carry?

#18

Post by cadet3 »

I've done the same thing on occasion when I work plain cloths assignments especially when I'm out and about interviewing witnesses. I keep my badge and police ID in a neck holder that is pretty obvious. Some people just clip their badge to a belt. He could have been on duty and decided to have dinner with his family, I've done the same with my wife since we never see each other anyway. Just a guess.

MBGuy
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Re: LEOs open carry?

#19

Post by MBGuy »

Thanks Steve for the thorough explanation. I'd never heard of it before so it was a surprise to me. This REALLY makes it seem like open carry is just a small edit of the code away instead of a huge modification.

I travel quite often by road to visit my mom in Seguin and stay overnight most of the time, so I could try it as soon as my first check from the Texas Lottery comes in :lol: .
Harry
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Re: LEOs open carry?

#20

Post by DONT TREAD ON ME »

I am not trying to bag on LEOs by any means but can someone tell me why they are an exception to the law?

srothstein
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Re: LEOs open carry?

#21

Post by srothstein »

Well, they have the exception so they can do their job. There are not too many people who would do a cops job without carrying a weapon.

And the reason for the off duty exception is in Code of Criminal Procedure section Art. 2.13. DUTIES AND POWERS.:

(a) It is the duty of every peace officer to preserve the peace within the officer's jurisdiction. To effect this purpose, the officer shall use all lawful means.
(b) The officer shall:
(1) in every case authorized by the provisions of this Code, interfere without warrant to prevent or suppress crime;
(2) execute all lawful process issued to the officer by any magistrate or court;
(3) give notice to some magistrate of all offenses committed within the officer's jurisdiction, where the officer has good
reason to believe there has been a violation of the penal law; and
(4) arrest offenders without warrant in every case where the officer is authorized by law, in order that they may be
taken before the proper magistrate or court and be tried.
(c) It is the duty of every officer to take possession of a child under Article 63.009(g).


The things to note are that there is no duty status mentioned and the word "shall" is used. This means the officer has no discretion but must take action. This is also one of the reasons police unions got the law passed forbidding cities from requiring officers to live inside their jurisdictions.Of course, I still live in my jurisdiction, but what can I say.
Steve Rothstein

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Re: LEOs open carry?

#22

Post by DONT TREAD ON ME »

I thought thats what would be said...

So for all the military; Active Duty, Reserve, National Guard...shouldnt we be able to carry when and how we want to effectively do our job at all times? We made an oath to protect the Constitution of the United States from all enemies foreign AND domestic.

To most of you this may be 'reaching' but I believe that no matter what your job you should have to follow ALL laws. If the state says NO CC then the LEOs should not be allowed to CC. If the state says NO OC then the LEOs should not be allowed to OC.
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Re: LEOs open carry?

#23

Post by boomerang »

XtremeDuty.45 wrote:To most of you this may be 'reaching' but I believe that no matter what your job you should have to follow ALL laws. If the state says NO CC then the LEOs should not be allowed to CC. If the state says NO OC then the LEOs should not be allowed to OC.
There is no general "NO OC" law. It's only required under very limited circumstances.

A nuerosurgeon can legally carry a handgun openly while hunting legally.

A computer programmer can legally carry a longun openly while walking down the street.

A construction worker can legally carry a handgun openly while mowing his own lawn.
"Ees gun! Ees not safe!"

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Re: LEOs open carry?

#24

Post by DONT TREAD ON ME »

ok lets go with carrying in public!
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boomerang
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Re: LEOs open carry?

#25

Post by boomerang »

I think the choice should be a personal one, and the difference between wearing a handgun openly or concealed should be the same legally as between wearing a crucifix openly or concealed. I was pointing out the current law, not arguing for the status quo.
"Ees gun! Ees not safe!"

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Re: LEOs open carry?

#26

Post by DONT TREAD ON ME »

my apologies my post was not intended to be jerky... :cheers2:
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Count
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Re: LEOs open carry?

#27

Post by Count »

XtremeDuty.45 wrote:We made an oath to protect the Constitution of the United States from all enemies foreign AND domestic.
From where I sit, it looks like somebody dropped the ball on the latter part.
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srothstein
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Re: LEOs open carry?

#28

Post by srothstein »

XtremeDuty.45 wrote:So for all the military; Active Duty, Reserve, National Guard...shouldnt we be able to carry when and how we want to effectively do our job at all times? We made an oath to protect the Constitution of the United States from all enemies foreign AND domestic.
Well, if you read the law, there is an exemption for members of the military carrying in performance of their duty. This even includes Texas State Guard members. But the important part is that military members do not get to decide when they want to carry. They can only carry in the line of duty, so they have to have orders to do so. For example, the Armed Forces Police that work in San Antonio carry all the time when they are on patrol in the city off base. They have orders and an ID card authorizing this. If you are a reservist with military authorization to carry, you may do so to.

This is not too different from what the police get. They are always on duty according to the CCP so they get to carry. The real difference is that cops get to ignore places weapons prohibited and military members do not, but military members get to carry on base and civilian cops do not, so we are all even there.

But, I do agree that the law should be the same for everyone. Basically, I think we need to work on repealing Chapter 46. I think we can get there eventually, and we are taking it one small step at a time.
Steve Rothstein
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